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Australia to ban engineered stone

abc.net.au

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Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#261

Post by lathiat »

kelnos wrote: post #189
lathiat wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The building industry in Australia is filled almost entirely with independent contractors. Mostly single people, working on a contract to the house builder/project manager. So there is little room for that. But I agree, this would be good. But I think the decision here is basically that, in practice, it's very difficult to actually get people to follow the required practices, in practice. As has been shown in practic…

In this case I guess the independent contractor ends up accepting the responsibility for not taking their own safety precautions seriously: they get silicosis. I feel for the people who were early in the industry who had no idea this could happen to them, but now that it's known, if a contractor doesn't feel like taking appropriate precautions, then they get what they deserve. Banning an entire industry because peopl…

I wholeheartedly agree with you in theory.

But I, personally, am happy to accept the 'Human Factors' side of reality.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#262

Post by bozhark »

_3u10 wrote: post #231
piperswe wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It hurts me when I see my tradie trainee husband (at school to be an auto mechanic) skip PPE in places he really shouldn't (e.g. latex gloves when handling carcinogenic fluids). I don't really know as I can do much other than state my objections to deaf ears though.

Those fluids are carcinogenic to drink, not to get on your skin. Don’t be a scold, show the benefit, which is it’s easier to clean up after work. Also latex gloves cause latex allergies frequently, vinyl gloves can be a good alternative.

Most are carcinogenic to _breathe_

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#263

Post by xupybd »

Reason077 wrote: post #218
yeeeloit wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cutting stone and keeping 100% of it out of your lungs is nearly impossible, especially when you are working in uncontrolled environments like someone's kitchen that is being renovated. The PPE available for this sort of work is just not up to the job.

Making driving 100% safe is nearly impossible, but we drive cars built to good crash standards with seatbelts, ABS, AEB, etc. People still die on the roads, but these safety features reduce risk to an acceptable level. Likewise, using decent PPE won't 100% eliminate risk, but it will greatly improve it. Just because PPE isn't 100% effective doesn't mean you shouldn't use it. The other kind of obvious solution with en…

Why not use other materials?

Modified acrylic or compact laminate?

That will save lives.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#264

Post by rob74 »

Ekaros wrote: post #258

Is this stuff really so loved that we absolutely must have it, even if we aren't entirely sure what in it causes these effects? Is there really absolutely no other options available? That is we will now go hungry as there is no more tables in world to prepare our food on...

Engineered stone is cheaper than "real" stone (granite) and sturdier than other alternatives (mostly wood-based materials). But no, the world won't end because of this ban. What people are getting worked up about is that stone has been worked on for centuries, and will also keep being worked on in the future, and there are proven methods of preventing silicosis while working on it (wearing PPE, vacuuming up the dust ASAP etc.), but the Australian government chose not to do anything about the culture of ignoring the dangers and instead took the short-sighted alternative of banning just one of the many possible causes of silicosis...

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#265

Post by xupybd »

amluto wrote: post #143
ShadowBanThis01 wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not saying those figures aren't valid, but isn't it also possible that the increased affordability of man-made stone meant that these workers were doing more "stone" installations as opposed to tile or other options?

Hmm, this isn’t crazy. IIRC in the nineties and earlier, porcelain tile countertops were very common. Granite and marble were exotic. Porcelain is high in silicates, but not so high in silica. Glaze is (I think) amorphous, like glass. And your average tile installer cuts with a wet saw. Marble is mostly calcium carbonate. Granite contains lots of quartz.

Engineered stone is easy to cut on site. Real cheap to work with that's why it beat Porcelain.

I don't think Porcelain is as dangerous.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#266

Post by Reason077 »

eru wrote: post #240
Reason077 wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Making driving 100% safe is nearly impossible, but we drive cars built to good crash standards with seatbelts, ABS, AEB, etc. People still die on the roads, but these safety features reduce risk to an acceptable level. Likewise, using decent PPE won't 100% eliminate risk, but it will greatly improve it. Just because PPE isn't 100% effective doesn't mean you shouldn't use it. The other kind of obvious solution with en…

You inadvertently make a good point that driving should probably be taxed a lot heavier in most places. It's reasonably safe for other people in cars, but it's hell for pedestrians, wheel-chair users and cyclists. So much so, that we have re-organised our whole society around avoiding this danger. Eg kids don't play on the streets anymore.

I agree with this. But perhaps a lot of it is just perception? In my country pedestrian deaths have fallen dramatically since the mid-1980s, by about 80%, despite the size of the vehicle fleet getting much larger. Were there more pedestrian deaths in the 1980s because more kids played on the streets? Or because cars and drivers were less safe and less aware of the risks? It certainly wasn't because there were more cars!

Cars and streets have also been getting safer here: advanced pedestrian and cyclist-aware AEB is already in many cars - and becomes mandatory in all new cars in Europe from July 2024. Streets are getting safer with better designs (more choke points, raised pedestrian crossings, etc), and speed limits being reduced in urban/residential areas.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#267

Post by raverbashing »

amanaplanacanal wrote: post #227
yeeeloit wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cutting stone and keeping 100% of it out of your lungs is nearly impossible, especially when you are working in uncontrolled environments like someone's kitchen that is being renovated. The PPE available for this sort of work is just not up to the job.

I thought all you had to do was use water with the saw and wear a respirator. Am I misinformed?

No, you're not misinformed, but some people will conflate a non-perfect protection with 'protection is useless'

It's just bog standard denialism

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#268

Post by Too »

TylerE wrote: post #127
jacobolus wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One difference is that stone countertops are not a danger to homeowners or people doing future basic renovation.

But they are - and the article mentions it. Alterations years later will still Produce dust.

Countertops are isolated units that can be removed safely without damaging them. Worst alteration I can think of is drilling a hole, another small operation that you can cover with water and vacuum.

Opening up a dry wall on the other hand, will inevitably dust up the whole house.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#269

Post by Ekaros »

oooyay wrote: post #132
unclekev wrote: post #102

I don't understand how banning it does anything to address the underlying problem of people wilfully ignoring PPE/safe working practices. One of the "Suggested safer alternatives" is Granite which can have silica content up to 45% (Engineered stone being 95%+) So instead of 2 years to develop silicosis it will instead take 4 years of working with the "safe alternatives"? All the people who were cutting engineered sto…

Tooling and PPE are part of the problem but not all of it. People who clean up job sites are also getting sick: > "We actually not only saw people who were directly cutting and grinding the stone, but we saw people who were just sweeping up the work site after the stone had been cut," says Rose. "They were exposed to the silica particles that were suspended in the air just with housekeeping duties." So, basically eve…

I wonder instead of these diesel or whatever bans. Why not mandate that everyone wears sufficient PPE 24/7. I mean protecting your health instead of removing source seems entirely reasonable in that mindset.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#270

Post by [deleted] »

fourthark wrote: post #203
kelnos wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, if we can't incentivize doing the right thing by teaching people that they'll die of a respiratory disease in their 30s if they don't wear their PPE, then honestly, that's life. If people choose to do their job in a way that gives them high risk of bad health outcomes, that's on them. Certainly if workers are being coerced into not doing the right thing, that's a problem, and employers need to be fined into o…

You implicitly lay responsibility on the worker first, then on the employer, then on the customer. Perhaps if the order of responsibility were reversed, it would lead to better outcomes.

[deleted]
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