Tesla Recalls 2M Vehicles over Autopilot Software Issue • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla Recalls 2M Vehicles over Autopilot Software Issue

#41

Post by solardev » Wed, Dec 13, 2023, 3:41 PM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #37

solardev wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's because the NHTSA forced them into a safety related "recall". It's not just a regular OTA update. Tesla has a long history of being dishonest about Autopilot capabilities and dangers, and it's killed several people so far. The NHTSA is forcing them to make some tweaks. (Not arguing that autopilot is on the whole any more or less safe than human drivers. Just that Tesla has a history of misrepresentation.)

I thought Tesla was known for being dishonest about its FSD feature, not AutoPilot, which is a less ambitious lane keeping/auto cruise control feature?

Sorry, you're probably right. I have a hard time keeping track of their confusing names.

Re: Tesla Recalls 2M Vehicles over Autopilot Software Issue

#42

Post by cush » Wed, Dec 13, 2023, 3:41 PM UTC

kristofferR wrote: post #4

ekianjo wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

gotta love the NYT for accurate headlines

It's not incorrect, it's just confusing: https://cleantechnica.com/2022/07/24/is-recall-really-the-ri...

It’s very mildly confusing but it would be more confusing to change the name. There are systems in place to ensure recall fixes are performed and consumers take recalls very seriously, so they will take action to ensure it’s updated (OTA isn’t infallible). Overreacting is better than under-reacting.

Re: Tesla Recalls 2M Vehicles over Autopilot Software Issue

#43

Post by jasonwatkinspdx » Wed, Dec 13, 2023, 3:41 PM UTC

sickofparadox wrote: post #28

nickthegreek wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The headline is perfectly clear and is not using language in a new way. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) issues recalls for safety related issues. The way the manufacture resolves the issues can differ.

If the average user on HN needs an explanation that a word in a title actually has a completely different effective meaning, I'd say that it is unlikely to be a clear title.

I would say on HN you're far more likely to get some "whell ahcktuwally" comments in the most counterproductive way, particularly because there are so many Tesla and Musk fans that immediately become defensive vs any negative news or criticism of each and engage in semantic quibbling to deflect.

Recall is the correct word to use for this sort of NTSC action. Most people understand what it means and don't care about OTA vs plugging in an ODB port.

Re: Tesla Recalls 2M Vehicles over Autopilot Software Issue

#44

Post by itslennysfault » Wed, Dec 13, 2023, 3:42 PM UTC

filoleg wrote: post #2

Note: “tesla recalls” == “tesla pushes OTA software update (just like any regular OTA update)”

I appreciate the clarification here. I read this headline this morning and it made me think they had to "(physically) recall 2M vehicles" as-in take them off the road completely.

With a cup of coffee it feels a bit more like "take them into a service center to fix them" but even that is far larger than the truth.

Re: Tesla Recalls 2M Vehicles over Autopilot Software Issue

#45

Post by LordKeren » Wed, Dec 13, 2023, 3:42 PM UTC

cush wrote: post #34

filoleg wrote: post #2

Note: “tesla recalls” == “tesla pushes OTA software update (just like any regular OTA update)”

Just because a manufacturer applies a fix OTA doesn’t make it not a recall. Recall is just a term. Regulators issue the recall. How the manufacturer performs the fix can vary.

Yeah, but it is plainly obvious that “recall” is a loaded term here. Yes, it is strictly true that it is the name for the thing that regulators are saying— But nothing is getting “recalled” in the literal meaning of the word. “Tesla ships mandatory software update OTA to address bug” is much more accurate to how this affects real people.

Re: Tesla Recalls 2M Vehicles over Autopilot Software Issue

#46

Post by solardev » Wed, Dec 13, 2023, 3:43 PM UTC

brandonagr2 wrote: post #30

solardev wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's because the NHTSA forced them into a safety related "recall". It's not just a regular OTA update. Tesla has a long history of being dishonest about Autopilot capabilities and dangers, and it's killed several people so far. The NHTSA is forcing them to make some tweaks. (Not arguing that autopilot is on the whole any more or less safe than human drivers. Just that Tesla has a history of misrepresentation.)

It is a regular OTA update. Negligent drivers have killed people, not autopilot capabilities. Take the example in the recent Washington Post article where a driver ran through a stop sign at a T intersection, left the road, and killed a bystander. What the article didn't say is that the system reduced cruise set point to 45 mph due to the road type, but the driver was _holding down the accelerator pedal_ to maintain…

It was an update forced by the NHTSA after an investigation and negotiation.

Re: Tesla Recalls 2M Vehicles over Autopilot Software Issue

#47

Post by csa » Wed, Dec 13, 2023, 3:43 PM UTC

rgbrgb wrote: post #9

filoleg wrote: post #2

Note: “tesla recalls” == “tesla pushes OTA software update (just like any regular OTA update)”

Yeah I was wondering about that too. I got a software update that seemed to add auto steer to my non-self-driving model y. I tried it a few times on the highway but it seemed erratic (switching off randomly and dangerously engaging regenerative brakes in the fast lane). Won’t be trying again until next update (if it sticks in the car). edit: corrected autopilot (cruise control) -> self driving

Are you a new Tesla owner?

> I got a software update that seemed to add auto steer to my non-autopilot model y.

All (edit: new since 2019) Teslas come with autopilot. “Full self driving” is an add on.

> I tried it a few times on the highway but it seemed erratic (switching off randomly and dangerously engaging regenerative brakes in the fast lane)

“Switching off” usually means that it can’t identify the lane it’s supposed to be in. Was this some sort of a rural highway, a highway under construction, and/or a poorly maintained road?

The braking is called “phantom braking”, and (since a very good update in spring 2022) usually only occurs when there is some sort of substantial deceptive visual issue like oil lines, asphalt sealant, a reflection of the sun, or visual mirages (when the road looks shiny/reflective due to temp diffs).

For me personally, phantom braking only happens on a couple of (crappy) roads at certain spots for me, so I just don’t use AP at those spots.

In general, AP is super consistent. Other than an overdone name, it works really well. If it was just called “advanced cruise control”, people wouldn’t be shitting themselves over the feature. It’s just adaptive cruise control with lane assist, two features that many cars have, and Teslas happens to have implemented quite well (imho).

Re: Tesla Recalls 2M Vehicles over Autopilot Software Issue

#48

Post by itslennysfault » Wed, Dec 13, 2023, 3:43 PM UTC

agloe_dreams wrote: post #25

martini333 wrote: post #14

"Owner notification letters will be mailed in accordance with 49 C.F.R. § 577.7." That's a lot of mail...

What is that, a quarter million min in postage alone?

That is what a company like this calls "budget dust"

Re: Tesla Recalls 2M Vehicles over Autopilot Software Issue

#49

Post by dylan604 » Wed, Dec 13, 2023, 3:43 PM UTC

chankstein38 wrote: post #16

rgbrgb wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I was wondering about that too. I got a software update that seemed to add auto steer to my non-self-driving model y. I tried it a few times on the highway but it seemed erratic (switching off randomly and dangerously engaging regenerative brakes in the fast lane). Won’t be trying again until next update (if it sticks in the car). edit: corrected autopilot (cruise control) -> self driving

I don't own a Tesla but when I was a kid we had Sega Channel and I remember waking up on the first day of a new cycle, excited to see what games had randomly been chosen to be listed. This is how I imagine update day going with a Tesla lol "Did they include any exciting features? Take anything good away? Gotta wake up and go find out!"

I hope this is in jest, and I’m assuming it is. The fact that this is even allowed to happen is bewildering to me. The fact that the car can perform totally different from one day to the next because of an OTA update you knew nothing about is insane. Even if there are UI notifications on the 65” TV in the console, NOBODY reads them. They just scroll through and click accept/okay as quickly as possible. They are already late for work, and still have to drop off the ankle biters at daycare. “Sorry boss, but I would have been here on time if I hadn’t been forced to read a new EULA on my car”

Re: Tesla Recalls 2M Vehicles over Autopilot Software Issue

#50

Post by electrondood » Wed, Dec 13, 2023, 3:43 PM UTC

brandonagr2 wrote: post #30

solardev wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's because the NHTSA forced them into a safety related "recall". It's not just a regular OTA update. Tesla has a long history of being dishonest about Autopilot capabilities and dangers, and it's killed several people so far. The NHTSA is forcing them to make some tweaks. (Not arguing that autopilot is on the whole any more or less safe than human drivers. Just that Tesla has a history of misrepresentation.)

It is a regular OTA update. Negligent drivers have killed people, not autopilot capabilities. Take the example in the recent Washington Post article where a driver ran through a stop sign at a T intersection, left the road, and killed a bystander. What the article didn't say is that the system reduced cruise set point to 45 mph due to the road type, but the driver was _holding down the accelerator pedal_ to maintain…

1. Every time one of these articles comes out, the investigation concludes 10 months later that the driver was at fault.

2. The hero metric is what is the rate of crashes _compared to the general population not using Autopilot_.

Tesla make it abundantly clear that the driver is still responsible for monitoring. This is analogous to a dev just deploying copy-pasted code from ChatGPT without checking it. You still supervise/monitor the result.