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Today Is One of the Biggest Surveillance Votes. Will the FBI Stop Spying?

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Re: Today Is One of the Biggest Surveillance Votes. Will the FBI Stop Spying?

#171
post #72
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, so let’s deport everyone who came in through said unprotected open borders. That’s literally why borders exist. To keep foreign threats… foreign.

Weird how the most prominent example of terrorism on American soil from foreign agents was perpetrated with completely legal non-land-border penetration. Seems like we have locals lot more dangerous than anyone coming through the land border with Mexico to work or seek asylum in the US. Actual foreign terrorists just aren't as ignorant as you want them to be.

So… close the borders. Completely.

Re: Today Is One of the Biggest Surveillance Votes. Will the FBI Stop Spying?

#172
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference between a representative and a true democracy.

A representative democracy would require at least some politicians representing working cutizens.

We do have some of those. The only problem is that they have a rather unfortunate habit of dying.

Re: Today Is One of the Biggest Surveillance Votes. Will the FBI Stop Spying?

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is NOT what 702 provides. 702 prohibits US citizens from being targeted (see: https://www.dni.gov/files/icotr/Section702-Basics-Infographi... )

Bwahahhahahahahahhhahhahaahhaahahahhahahahhahahhahhaahhaahhahahahahhhha No wait, you’re serious? Did you not watch the senate testimony? They have illegally spied on millions upon millions of Americans. For things as petty as “I think this girl likes me” or “I’ll show my father in law!”. No punishments much less termination or what you or I would face: jail. So yeah, that link is a joke. There are no protections agai…

absolute power corrupts absolutely

there is no non-corrupt agency

Re: Today Is One of the Biggest Surveillance Votes. Will the FBI Stop Spying?

#174
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not proposing that we should go full absolutist and also revoke the power for law enforcement to request court-approved warrants that clearly outline what they need to investigate and why. The laws up for discussion in this thread are largely there to give the FBI a backdoor to surveil the general public without requesting a warrant with clear details on what they're looking for and where they can look. Personall…

> The laws up for discussion in this thread are largely there to give the FBI a backdoor to surveil the general public without requesting a warrant with clear details on what they're looking for and where they can look. Yes, if we restrict discussion to warrantless surveillance then I think the restrictions ought to be much tighter. > I also don't expect our government to protect me in any meaningful way and would ra…

> Also, I didn't limit government protection to police vs. ordinary crime. Government also has responsibility for national defense, border control, gathering intelligence abroad, preventing terrorism, etc.

Sounds like we largely agree on the earlier points, this where it gets to my admittedly less common/popular opinions. I don't agree with standing militaries, if we're under direct threat and our people are willing to fight then the government's role should be to coordinate and supply this effort.

I also don't agree with most border controls, before enforcing solid borders we should have melted down the Statue of Liberty and sent it back to France (who ironically also doesn't believe in sending them your hungry, poor, or weak anymore). We continue to chase our tails attempting to close borders but never seriously consider the motivations leading to mass migration. If we can't feasibly close our borders we need to reconsider whether entitlement programs are worth the tradeoff and sustainable when someone can walk across the border and add to those budgets. I really don't mean to say I have the answer on what we should do, only that there's a fundamental challenge between wanting to ensure access to what we deem as core necessities when all it takes is physically being here and we can't effectively control borders.

With regards to terrorism, I'm of the opinion that terrorism can't be defeated through primarily military means. Terrorism is a form of psychological warfare against a population, you defeat that by not allowing one-off attacks to stoke fear and drive to over reactions. If we only learned one lesson from two decades of war in Afghanistan it should be that, when it comes to non-state actors, cutting off one head does in fact lead to multiple new heads popping up.

Re: Today Is One of the Biggest Surveillance Votes. Will the FBI Stop Spying?

#175

As an engineer, what I want to see is metrics. Bar charts for events the surveillance program helped with: y = count of terrorist plots stopped, x = time bucket y = cost of surveillance programs, x = time bucket y = count of petty crimes caught, x = time bucket y = count of total analyst caught abusing power, x = time bucket y = count of total Americans profiles, x = time bucket y = count of total world wide profiles…

Same

Re: Today Is One of the Biggest Surveillance Votes. Will the FBI Stop Spying?

#176
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The laws up for discussion in this thread are largely there to give the FBI a backdoor to surveil the general public without requesting a warrant with clear details on what they're looking for and where they can look. Yes, if we restrict discussion to warrantless surveillance then I think the restrictions ought to be much tighter. > I also don't expect our government to protect me in any meaningful way and would ra…

> Also, I didn't limit government protection to police vs. ordinary crime. Government also has responsibility for national defense, border control, gathering intelligence abroad, preventing terrorism, etc. Sounds like we largely agree on the earlier points, this where it gets to my admittedly less common/popular opinions. I don't agree with standing militaries, if we're under direct threat and our people are willing…

> I don't agree with standing militaries

The libertarian in me doesn't either. The realist in me isn't sure we can just stand them down in our current world.

> I also don't agree with most border controls

The libertarian in me would agree with this too, but only in the libertarian version of the US where we don't have a welfare state (which, historically, was the condition under which all previous immigrants to the US came here). You appear to have a similar view.

> I'm of the opinion that terrorism can't be defeated through primarily military means.

I don't think this is true. What is true that, to defeat terrorism militarily, you have to be willing to let your military do whatever is necessary to accomplish that mission, rather than hamstringing it with completely unrealistic rules of engagement. The French, for example, had no trouble defeating terrorism in Algeria militarily. They did it by, for example, not caring about how much civilian collateral damage was caused when the terrorists used civilians as human shields.

The obstacles to, for example, doing in Afghanistan what the French did in Algeria are political, not military.

> Terrorism is a form of psychological warfare against a population, you defeat that by not allowing one-off attacks to stoke fear and drive to over reactions.

Yes, and also by convincing the population, most of whom are not terrorists, that the terrorists are going to lose. If your military gets excoriated in the press every time a civilian is killed as collateral damage, then not just the terrorists, but the civilian population in their country, will understand that the terrorists are not going to lose--because you don't have the political will to defeat them.

Re: Today Is One of the Biggest Surveillance Votes. Will the FBI Stop Spying?

#177

The FBI director straight up admits that they violate the 4th amendment routinely, and then begs Congress to not ruin their precious workaround. And yet they will face no punishment whatsoever. Like another commenter said, many people were probably unconstitutionally charged via parallel construction thanks to this crap.

The problem with parallel construction is that it implies the defendant is guilty. However, when individuals have secretly accessed the source of evidence, there is a potential that they planted / altered the evidence that they subsequently "find" through a parallel construction. The prosecution inevitably then suggests that the defendant had sole custody of the resources (which is no longer true) and that anything f…

Or, they simply left the door unlocked when they left, allowing unknown third parties to also access.

Re: Today Is One of the Biggest Surveillance Votes. Will the FBI Stop Spying?

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is NOT what 702 provides. 702 prohibits US citizens from being targeted (see: https://www.dni.gov/files/icotr/Section702-Basics-Infographi... )

Bwahahhahahahahahhhahhahaahhaahahahhahahahhahahhahhaahhaahhahahahahhhha No wait, you’re serious? Did you not watch the senate testimony? They have illegally spied on millions upon millions of Americans. For things as petty as “I think this girl likes me” or “I’ll show my father in law!”. No punishments much less termination or what you or I would face: jail. So yeah, that link is a joke. There are no protections agai…

Even if the local spying somehow stopped and the billions spent on data centers were shut down, we have the 5 eyes and many eyes programs to reinforce it.

They have “legal” cover by some secret document. It’s easier to fool someone than tell them they were fooled.

Re: Today Is One of the Biggest Surveillance Votes. Will the FBI Stop Spying?

#179
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Weird how the most prominent example of terrorism on American soil from foreign agents was perpetrated with completely legal non-land-border penetration. Seems like we have locals lot more dangerous than anyone coming through the land border with Mexico to work or seek asylum in the US. Actual foreign terrorists just aren't as ignorant as you want them to be.

Okay so your solution is: open borders and heavier government surveillance to balance it? Fantastic.

I think you missed the point.

Re: Today Is One of the Biggest Surveillance Votes. Will the FBI Stop Spying?

#180
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Weird how the most prominent example of terrorism on American soil from foreign agents was perpetrated with completely legal non-land-border penetration. Seems like we have locals lot more dangerous than anyone coming through the land border with Mexico to work or seek asylum in the US. Actual foreign terrorists just aren't as ignorant as you want them to be.

In 2023, more than 160 people on the terror watch list have been caught illegally crossing US borders: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/number-pe... Given that there are 600,000 who were observed entering but got away in 2023 alone, and more were likely crossing unobserved, there's very good odds that they are already here.

And yet we still only have the handful of incidents from foreigners, most of which come over legally anyway. Right wingers have been fearmingering about foreigners for decades. Are they just using illegal entry now when they didn't before and waiting a really long time? You do know domestic terrorism is just as common as foreign terrorism in the US, right?
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