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Epic vs. Google: Google Loses

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Re: Epic vs. Google: Google Loses

#901
post #886

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It should be noted that this was a jury decision. Juries are instructed on the relevant law, but ultimately they can give back whatever answer they want, for whatever reason they want. So while we can speculate why the answer came back as it did... and that speculation may be correct if the jury was following instructions, we won't know for sure unless someone on the jury chooses to come forward and explain their dec…

Have you ever heard of a judge telling a jury that they are free to think for themselves and give the answer they want? If I recall, there is a term for that, called jury nullification and judges reportedly become upset if attorneys tell their juries about it. If you hear of a judge that encourages juries to think for themselves and answer as they think, rather than prescribing how to think to them, let me know.

I'm a lawyer. I've explained this so many times it's starting to bore me, but I have to keep doing it.

Jury nullification has never existed as a right in any common law system. It is merely a descriptive term that lawyers use to describe a situation where a jury decides to ignore the law. Lawyers cannot instruct juries on its existence because, in the law, it doesn't exist. It only ever happens because juries cannot be punished for deciding contrary to what the law says; their right to their own reasoning is sacrosanct.

It describes a situation where the jury ignores the law, and lawyers can never instruct juries to ignore the law, in any circumstance. Lawyers can never say "I know the law says X but if you ignore that, we can't punish you hint hint."

It is a term that describes a crinkle in the law. It does not exist as a right, and juries are NOT entitled to do it, but at the same time, they cannot be punished for doing so.

People who whine about jury nullification are one step below 'sovereign citizen' types in terms of driving me nuts with their willful misunderstanding of the law.

Re: Epic vs. Google: Google Loses

#902

So they will take this back to Apple and probably win then? To me this means Epic has unilaterally won. Android was the more open of the two. We all know from the personal computer how it should be. Apple and Google are on borrowed time.

Not likely, they aren’t the same type of case. Apple didn’t force anyone else to install their App Store. That’s where Google differs and what Epic proved they did. They can’t prove Apple did anything like that since Apple doesn’t offer iOS to anyone else.

I probably don't know about the case but this sounds completely backwards. Aren't Google (not that I like them) the ones which do allow third party app stores and Apple do not?

So they're being punished FOR allowing choice?

Re: Epic vs. Google: Google Loses

#903
post #720
post #554

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There’s need to act like this and your comment doesn’t contribute anything to the discussion. Does yours? I mean that in earnest, not as a dig. You're posting legal analysis without even rudimentary legal knowledge, and I think that's worth noting and responding to. It's also worth noting you only admitted you were not an expert once your initial post was debunked, and that in your corrigendum you manage somehow to…

> It's also worth noting you only admitted you were not an expert once your initial post was debunked No, that was in the original comment. I added only the paragraph prefixed with EDIT. My friend, you are just picking a fight on the internet. You don’t actually know what the comment was and yet you say you do. Please do not. Alternatively, please tell me how my comment is misleading now, if there truly exists an arg…

With respect, you seem to be the one struggling to let this one go. In two short comments you've accused me of: fulminating, not being constructive, posting against site rules, picking fights on the internet, posting ad hominem attacks, etc. All I've noted is that you're not legally trained, which you yourself admit.

My respectful advice is that if you're not legally trained, but wish to write legal analysis, (1) pause and consider how useful this actually is to others, and (2) if you must continue, preface (!) your statement with a disclaimer that you're not legally trained.

Lawyers are trained that with knowledge comes responsibility - people tend to rely on what lawyers say, often in unanticipated ways. Not only does this often lead people to go off half-cocked, but it can have legal consequences for the person giving the advice (there's such a thing as negligent advice). Generally these laws apply equally to lawyers and non-lawyers, and simply because you don't have any legal training doesn't mean you're not giving 'legal advice', it just makes your advice all the more dangerous. It seems reasonably unlikely you'd be sued for negligent advice for random comments online (not impossible!), but you should reflect on the ethics of confidently leading people on, from a position of relative legal ignorance.

I realise you may not be receptive to what I am saying to you - you appear to have become somewhat defensive and might be perceiving my words as further attacks - but I'm genuinely not here to diss you, and I'm absolutely not looking for a fight. Perhaps my initial comment was a little glib, but not knowing what precedent is and giving legal advice is rather like not knowing what a variable is but nonetheless giving confident programming advice. Generally best avoided.

Re: Epic vs. Google: Google Loses

#904
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes please. Lock it up for consumers all they want but let people who want to tinker, tinker.

And you can do that today by buying an Android device

Walled gardens make it very difficult to move.

It's like living in a place where solar panels are illegal to install and you're suggesting to move house. How about we remove silly restrictions?

Re: Epic vs. Google: Google Loses

#905
post #231

I wonder if Lina Khan will be able to finally get her anti-trust case through against Google. It’s interesting how the judges in Apple vs Epic stayed with Big Tech, same with Microsoft on the Blizzard acquisition. Almost if the Judges are scared of Big Tech but the Jury composed of lay people see the monopoly for what it is.

...I dunno; Epic seems to me like it's also part of Big Tech, even if it's not part of The Biggest Tech.

I think they should count as big tech, even if only recently. UE is a beast and the epic store has a lot of 3rd party content.

Re: Epic vs. Google: Google Loses

#906

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So random websites I go to are now gonna be able to take over my phone? Why aren’t we seeing this scale of attacks using JavaScript?

Javascript was designed to be secure-by-default, and it takes a vast amount of effort to keep it that way Native apps were designed to be powerful-by-default, and the amount of effort to bolt security on after the fact is orders of magnitude more

The sole criterion for JavaScript was to design something that could be shipped as fast as possible. The early browser wars were all about pumping features out. Security had nothing to do with it.

Re: Epic vs. Google: Google Loses

#907

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the difference here is that Apple locks things down on Apple hardware running Apple software. On the other hand, Google is trying to manipulate the market to gain an advantage over competitors on non Google hardware running Google software. On the Apple side of things, the full vertical is Apple. That is not the case for Google.

Ok so Google is punished for being more open in the first case? Sounds fishy to me ...

Google is running on other hardware, not their own. That is the difference.

Re: Epic vs. Google: Google Loses

#908
post #883

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple is horrible, but Google isn't blameless. Google and Apple are a duopoly that controls one of the most essential devices of our time. Their racket extends more broadly than Standard Oil. The smartphone is a critical piece of modern life, and these two companies control every aspect of them. - Tax 30% - Control when and how software can be deployed - Can pull software or deny updates - Prevent web downloads (Appl…

For what it is worth, Youtube's tax is around 70%, but people get to see non-monetized videos for free. Similarly, the Google Play Store lets people download software at no cost when no price has been attached to it by the developer, despite having to do the work of distributing it. Also, the OS developer acting as a gatekeeper is necessary to prevent malware from getting onto devices. Without that, you have Windows…

YouTube's tax is not comparable to the Play Store or the App Store because other identical services exist. Pretty much anyone immediately familiar with Google or Apple's infrastructure would laugh that off - you cannot replace the App Store in the same way. Unlike YouTube and Vimeo/Dailymotion, nobody is competing with the App Store to adjust it's taxation.

If Windows and MacOS imposed the same limitations, entire classes of software would stop getting distributed. Games would no longer be profitable enough to ship or diverse enough to compete in terms of profits. Professional software/plugin developers like Pro Tools, Panic! and U-He would lose the software margins they enjoy today and potentially stop supporting new OS releases. It happened already on MacOS after the depreciation of 32-bit apps and OpenGL.

> the OS developer acting as a gatekeeper is necessary to prevent malware from getting onto devices

You say that, but then viruses like Pegasus show up using nothing more than first-party Apple services. It's a bogus fearmongering tactic that cannot be used to justify not giving people a choice. User exploitation will exist as long as the user has enough power to act against their own interests. You'd have to remove the phone functionality to make a safe phone.

> Almost everything you list is actually a positive thing

> nothing people hope these lawsuits would accomplish would give us that.

Interesting, you sound incredibly desperate to dismiss the idea that legislation could fix this problem despite a lack of evidence. Wanna expand on that?

Re: Epic vs. Google: Google Loses

#909

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why just Android TV? Why not Roku and PalmOS? And regulatory agencies and car manufacturers are never going to let you install what you want on car screens.

And this is fine. Devices with different purposes require different regulations.

Or just maybe don’t buy devices that don’t meet your needs?

Re: Epic vs. Google: Google Loses

#910
post #559

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do we know for a fact Apple made fewer deals like these? I don't think we do. Apple makes a lot of deals. A lot. I'd expect them to be about even.

Apple was pretty careful not to make deals. For instance Microsoft and Epic both publicly complained about not getting deals. Supposedly, the 15%-after-first-year rule for subscriptions that they instituted was because they were trying to entice Netflix to continue to take in-app payment for subscriptions. Rather than a sweetheart deal, they rolled it out as a platform change. There are areas which I think are more q…

Netflix reportedly had special terms for years before that policy change for everyone else. I don’t think they were the only ones.

I think Apple just did that because it was becoming clear that what they were saying wasn’t true/they were getting political pressure about charging 30% no matter what.

I don’t remember the exact timing on the change so my guess as to the cause may be wrong.

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