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Epic vs. Google: Google Loses

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Re: Epic vs. Google: Google Loses

#851
post #830

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By the same logic, other phonemakers can come over and make phones. The definition of what is a "market" is arbitrary and subjective. Google may be a monopoly in internet search, but only a small player in "global advertisement". And anyone anywhere is a monopolist in the very narrow definition of the market that includes their own ten customers. What's really important is the power play: your company should strive t…

How about a _market_ is anything where there exists a _marketplace_? Doesn't seem like a wild stretch. Now why should Apple have a monopoly on accepting payments on its platform? To your second point: people are sad that we can’t have cheaper and better software on iOS. It’s a poor UX when an app makes me go on my desktop to sign up for their paid service. It negatively impacts consumers and only exists because Apple…

> How about a _market_ is anything where there exists a _marketplace_?

So every store is a monopoly? You are going to have to be a bit more rigorous than adding “-place” and call it a day.

Re: Epic vs. Google: Google Loses

#852
post #849

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW you don't really need an app store, you could download APKs off vendors/publishers, verify signatures and mind updates (except Apple won't let you, but that's a different story). You want to use an app store, fine, use an app store and pay some commission on what you buy there, it's not a problem, reaching into any purchase done after the initial download is.

> you don't really need an app store > except Apple won't let you, but that's a different story You're saying you can comment, but no one will give you access to the keyboard?

The whole discussion is about Google, they do let you use whatever store, and also let you compile and deploy your own Android if you're up for the task and your phone manufacturer allows you to boot what you want.

I'd too prefer Apple to be forced by court to open their devices for everything, not holding my breath.

Re: Epic vs. Google: Google Loses

#853

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both are bad for consumers, but one is worse. A locked garden is a locked garden. But a locked garden that you go into knowing it's a locked garden is better than a locked garden that advertises itself as open and then locks you in. Both are locked gardens; one is also false advertising.

Gotta agree with you. I originally chose Android because it was relatively open but Google wiped out our freedom with hardware remote attestation. Now my bank app refuses to work if I modify my device in any way. If I must be in a walled garden, I'm choosing the better kept one. Android is quite simply inferior, I tolerated it because it gave me relative freedom but there's no reason to tolerate it any longer.

Yea. I'm on Samsung s22 ultra myself. I'm thinking to move to Iphone and Apple Watch because at least with apple I know I'm being locked down up front.

Re: Epic vs. Google: Google Loses

#854

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It should be though. Unchecked monopolies, duopolies and oligopolies are antithetical to a free market economy - they stifle competition and make the market un-free as well Some markets only support a natural monopoly though. If you forcefully break up every monopoly you'll always be in court, because after winning the case and breaking up a company, the next natural monopoly will form within a few years. The best…

Agreed, particularly in agriculture and other rural scenarios it's very common that there is effectively one seller/purchaser for entire classes of goods. But there is barely any government oversight authority to watch over these or where any affected party can raise grievances.

Except the US government is constantly opening antitrust cases and successfully prosecuting violators on a monthly basis, you probably just never hear about it.

https://www.justice.gov/atr/antitrust-case-filings

Re: Epic vs. Google: Google Loses

#855

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the result of this case is "you can have a monopoly as long as your device and ecosystem are 100% locked down", that's terrible! The rule of thumb, in a very simplified way, is indeed that you can have a monopoly as long as you don’t actively leverage that power to stifle competition. That’s not a result of this case but a result of all the jurisprudence leading up to this case. And to a certain degree, that mak…

I don't think this relates to Apple case. Apple doesn't allow other stores to exist on their ecosystem. That's a problematic monopoly, because competitors can not exists. That's different from what you are saying: other companies are allowed to create smart thermostat and compete against Nest

No, I’m saying that almost everyone has a monopoly over something just by creating a new market.

This is why monopolies aren’t illegal per se, and it requires a couple of components for it to venture into unlawful territory.

One is that the monopoly is powerful enough that it can be exerted to pressure other parties in an anti-competitive way, and another is that that power is actively used. There are more, but for the sake of simplicity, these are the important ones in this debate.

Disallowing competitors to exist, in this case, means passively making it possible for competitors to exist.

The omission of an act (passive) will never be as substantial as an indicator as an active act to quash competition.

The App Store hasn’t changed much since its inception. Commission rates have decreased since its inception, making it harder to argue that Apple is squeezing developers now that it has more power.

The analogy with the thermostat hypothetical is accurate. If I create a new smart thermostat startup, I create a new market, the software distribution on the thermostats I manufacture.

This is analogous to the market definition people use to argue that Apple is violating antitrust laws. If it makes it easier to grasp what I'm saying, then instead, imagine I start manufacturing a new smartphone.

They launched the iPhone and, by doing so, created a new market, the iOS app distribution market.

The only difference is that the iOS app distribution market has grown exponentially, but the relevant legal realities are the same. The law currently doesn’t have a mechanism to say, “Ok, now you’ve grown, so now it’s illegal.”

Instead, it looks at abuse of power, where acts weigh heavier than the omission of acts.

The main difference between the Google and Apple’s case is that the former went out of its way to stifle competition by making demands and setting requirements (akin to Microsoft back in the day).

Some now say that the only reason this difference exists is because Apple doesn’t have to pressure others like Google did, but that’s not a difference to be shrugged away. It’s an essential difference.

It makes the difference between one giant who throws its weight around and another who never had to do that because the terms have been the same from the get-go (however favorable it was for them).

It is for that very reason that the Google case won’t have much bearing on the Apple case.

Re: Epic vs. Google: Google Loses

#856
post #23

For anyone curious why Google lost: >Epic v. Google [...] hinged on secret revenue sharing deals between Google, smartphone makers, and big game developers, ones that Google execs internally believed were designed to keep rival app stores down. Without finding the same thing in Apple, I doubt this will affect Apple's case much, but of course I should mention I'm not a lawyer; I'm perfectly happy to be schooled if som…

Apple doesn't need to strike secret deals to keep out alternative app stores because they've made alternate app stores completely impossible. If the result of this case is "you can have a monopoly as long as your device and ecosystem are 100% locked down", that's terrible!

It was shown that Apple does have secret deals though. Part of it was that Apple could actually be hurt if some of the bigger players left - Amazon, Netflix, etc. Netflix had a really sharp deal if I'm not mistaken, like 10% compared to the 30% everyone else paid.

Re: Epic vs. Google: Google Loses

#857

I consider HN users to be smarter and rational than average internet crowd. Surprised to see folks here comparing the Google Apple store to other business models like Starbucks, Donut shops, Restaurants? does not make sense to me. Consumers have a choice to switch all other businesses but not the mobile app stores. I can live without Starbucks or Netflix if I want to, or switch to different providers if needed. But t…

FWIW you don't really need an app store, you could download APKs off vendors/publishers, verify signatures and mind updates (except Apple won't let you, but that's a different story). You want to use an app store, fine, use an app store and pay some commission on what you buy there, it's not a problem, reaching into any purchase done after the initial download is.

Many applications such as banking applications are only available in the official app store.

Re: Epic vs. Google: Google Loses

#858

I consider HN users to be smarter and rational than average internet crowd. Surprised to see folks here comparing the Google Apple store to other business models like Starbucks, Donut shops, Restaurants? does not make sense to me. Consumers have a choice to switch all other businesses but not the mobile app stores. I can live without Starbucks or Netflix if I want to, or switch to different providers if needed. But t…

FWIW you don't really need an app store, you could download APKs off vendors/publishers, verify signatures and mind updates (except Apple won't let you, but that's a different story). You want to use an app store, fine, use an app store and pay some commission on what you buy there, it's not a problem, reaching into any purchase done after the initial download is.

Where exactly can I download my bank's app as an APK? Except random shady websites...

Re: Epic vs. Google: Google Loses

#859

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but this is only because Apple designed the phone that way. Apple should not be immune from antitrust law purely because they decided not to allow competition.

They do allow competition. Build your own phone and your own app store.

sigh That's not what I meant.

Apple decided where the boundary of competition lies by deciding to bundle their phone, their operating system, their app store, and their code signing policies into a package deal. A thicket of copyright laws forbid you from unbundling any combination of these. For example, I can't legally run iOS on my Pixel 8 Pro. It is legal to run Android on an iPhone, except the hardware boot ROM is designed to reject anything not signed by Apple, and Apple won't sign Android. You can circumvent that by taking advantage of security vulnerabilities in the boot ROM[0], and that's legal, too, but you can't legally tell anyone about those vulnerabilities because telling people how to break copy protection is a felony.

This same logic applies to application software. It's legal to jailbreak[1] your phone to install non-App-Store apps, but illegal to provide the jailbreak tool necessary to install those apps. If Epic had decided to release a jailbreak to install the Epic Games Store, instead of releasing a hotfix for third-party in-app billing and suing for antitrust, Tim Sweeney would have been thrown in jail for violating 17 USC 1201.

In copyright law, there's a concept of copyright misuse, which is what the courts call using copyright to break antitrust law. Copyright allows you monopoly control over your work, but you are not allowed to use that control to maintain an illegal monopoly that's outside of the copyright bargain. In other words, you don't get to opt-out of forms of competition you don't like. Congress decides those.

So no, "build your own phone and app store" is not enough. And letting Apple dictate the conduct of their competitors is effectively giving them antitrust immunity.

[0] Which are, BTW, once-in-a-decade. We've had a grand total of two bugs that can be used to install alternative operating systems on an iPhone.

[1] Jailbreak bugs aren't as scarce as boot ROM bugs, but they've been getting scarcer over time. This is not because Apple is doing a good security job, but because the NSA is hoarding all the good bugs for themselves.

Re: Epic vs. Google: Google Loses

#860

Serious question - does anyone really think of Sweeney as the underdog here and that he's fighting for the "little guy" gamer? Honestly asking to me it seems like a position to take to generate some political power but at the end of the day he's representing large corporate interests as well.

I think he was broken by "Games for Windows Live" on PC. They had to integrate it in Gears of War, and I think a lot of the industry saw it as Microsoft trying to steer the PC into being a MSFT only device. There was not much benefit for devs/pubs to using it, it was all good for Microsoft. He seems to want everything to be old school PC where anyone can sell in their own store and do what they want on a device.

However, it always feels weird to me on mobile since those devices were not really open and the maker always took their store cut. Epic knew this and got on those devices anyway, but then after Fortnite getting huge, wanted more of that mobile pie for themselves. That's sort of a generic take on mobile, as I haven't read through everything on this case.

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