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Air traffic controllers pushed to the brink

nytimes.com

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Re: Air traffic controllers pushed to the brink

#191

Post by amzthrow »

sxyuan wrote: post #189

There's an increase in incidents because ATCs are overworked and understaffed. The knee-jerk reaction is to try to automate the work away. A few problems with that kind of thinking: - Automation already exists - e.g., the collision detection warning mentioned in the article. I don't know much about air traffic control but I imagine there's some element of defense in depth. ATCs dozing off or running on fumes won't ca…

> Plenty of software teams have on-call rotations to cover production services.

There are plenty of valid criticisms of the cloud but this is what you are really paying for. The value proposition of the cloud is infrastructure-oncall-as-a-service.

Re: Air traffic controllers pushed to the brink

#192

Post by aredox »

mikrotikker wrote: post #145
astrostl wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ACT test scores have plummeted too. Combined with what we know about the physical brain changes that can be observed after a single mild infection, it all paints a potentially concerning relationship with COVID.

What about the effects of an extremely wide and extremely quick deployment of a novel vaccine (under threat of being fired)?

What about the effects of repeat infections by a very contagious and neuro invasive novel virus? Hmmm?

Re: Air traffic controllers pushed to the brink

#193

Post by gretch »

rdtsc wrote: post #91
oatmeal1 wrote: post #77

People are seriously concerned with aircraft near misses when we let cars kill 45,000 Americans a year. Absurdity.

Only if the people who are concerned could be channeling their concern into solving the problem. Here, I am guessing, not many people can actually solve the problem, so we can safely be very concerned about both things simultaneously! It would be different if it were the same exact group of people and the same budget who are in charge of plane safety, as those in charge of the car safety. We can then scold them for w…

>It would be different if it were the same exact group of people and the same budget who are in charge of plane safety, as those in charge of the car safety

This is exactly the case. In the US we have the Department of Transportation that governs automobile transportation as well as air travel (and also trains and boats).

Re: Air traffic controllers pushed to the brink

#194

Post by jamilton »

tqi wrote: post #143
oatmeal1 wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely, but one is a trifling concern compared to the other. Yet the trifling concern gets the media attention.

What is your point, that newspapers should lay out A1 with "concerns" ordered whatever arbitrary metric you personally have decided is the "right" measure of importance?

Newspapers already are applying their own metrics for what's fit to print, seems reasonable to prefer one's own metric (if not reasonable to expect that to happen without action).

Re: Air traffic controllers pushed to the brink

#195

Post by _cenw »

sxyuan wrote: post #189

There's an increase in incidents because ATCs are overworked and understaffed. The knee-jerk reaction is to try to automate the work away. A few problems with that kind of thinking: - Automation already exists - e.g., the collision detection warning mentioned in the article. I don't know much about air traffic control but I imagine there's some element of defense in depth. ATCs dozing off or running on fumes won't ca…

RAAS (Runway Awareness and Advisory System), the equivalent system installed on aircraft, also needs to become standard equipment. It is for some airlines, but it is by no means mandatory.

Re: Air traffic controllers pushed to the brink

#196

Post by PhobosSkunk »

sxyuan wrote: post #189

There's an increase in incidents because ATCs are overworked and understaffed. The knee-jerk reaction is to try to automate the work away. A few problems with that kind of thinking: - Automation already exists - e.g., the collision detection warning mentioned in the article. I don't know much about air traffic control but I imagine there's some element of defense in depth. ATCs dozing off or running on fumes won't ca…

Automation in ATC exists a little yes, as you said for collision detection, ground proximity warning and runway infringement. That's mostly it.

We have some cool toys to make life easier like CPDLC to communicate via data-link instead of voice, multi layer radar screens with tons of functions, ATIS generation etc but those are not automation, just QOL improvement and if anything goes wrong we go back to old school ATC by voice and maths.

There is a lot of automation in the data part of ATC, so flight plans processing, radar correlation, meteo data etc etc. But this is just normal IT stuff in 2023.

Some cool project are getting there, like virtual towers with augmented reality by using cameras instead of looking out a window. My company did recruit an expert in big data and ML to develop new tools and automate stuff, but always data related, nothing to do with controlling and aircraft on a radar screen.

Re: Air traffic controllers pushed to the brink

#197

Post by bryant »

shermantanktop wrote: post #125
atleastoptimal wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When was the last time Nuclear plants in the US significantly endangered human lives. 1979? With regards to rocket launches, pharma, etc. those are all somewhat novel domains: experiments where risk is a natural part of being the first time trying a set of variables. The variables in air traffic have been the same for decades, thus the thresholds for accepted risk should be much lower.

Call me a techno-pessimist, but we humans have a way of building imperfect machines regardless of theoretical perfectibility. Boeing 737 max?

In fairness, perfect and simple almost never go hand in hand in life critical applications because simple is almost entirely incapable of accounting for and mitigating impacts from the entropy of the universe.

Couple that with capitalism (the 737 max's design, oversimplified, resulted in two disasters due to a for-profit company trying to maximize profit and minimize time to market by hacking an existing platform to compete with a new and ostensibly better one) and it's a surprise we're doing well with air travel at all.

That air travel is as good as it is is a great case for techno optimism. In spite of all the garbage we get ourselves into, we manage to make it work.

Re: Air traffic controllers pushed to the brink

#198

Post by swagempire »

oatmeal1 wrote: post #77

People are seriously concerned with aircraft near misses when we let cars kill 45,000 Americans a year. Absurdity.

I think a better question is why the "car accident" people are always hijacking threads to push their agenda. Like the topic is Air Traffic Control. Why are you bringing up car accidents?

Re: Air traffic controllers pushed to the brink

#199

Post by raffraffraff »

screye wrote: post #168
verteu wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Traffic fatalities declined for the fifth straight quarter. About 19,515 people died in motor vehicle traffic crashes in 2023, a decrease of about 3.3% compared to 20,190 fatalities in the first half of 2022. I don't see much correspondence with: > In the fiscal year that ended Sept. 30, there were 503 air traffic control lapses that the F.A.A. preliminarily categorized as “significant,” 65 percent more than in the…

Traffic fatalities decrease because cars are getting safer. But the number or accidents per capita might not be. Pedestrian deaths have certainly been on the rise. https://www.ghsa.org/sites/default/files/publications/files/...

People are driving spaceship-sized SUVs while using their phones, hitting pedestrians who are walking around looking at their phones, jumping out of the path of an oncoming 12yo doing 40kmh on a battery powered scooter while looking at porn on their phones and using Whatsapp to schedule a meet up with their Fastgas supplier. Their parents think that a scooter is a toy, the phone is so that they can call home, and the money was for lunch.

Yeah, kinda half joking, in the sense that these 3 hypothetical people don't actually crash into each other every day, but they all exist. I see them every day.

I've also seen a huge rise in cyclists on the footpath (sidewalk), and it's so normalized that I had a guy in his 50s zoom up behind me and the wife and actually tell us to get out of the way. To say that he got called all the things I could possibly call him is an understatement.

Re: Air traffic controllers pushed to the brink

#200

Post by dayjaby »

Gud wrote: post #124
someplaceguy wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean, it nets out? Shouldn't the car trips from/to the airport mean that an airplane journey is even more dangerous, as you can't really fly without those additional car trips?

Yes you can. I usually take the train to the airport.

I take a car to the train to get to the airport.
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