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Air traffic controllers pushed to the brink

nytimes.com

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Re: Air traffic controllers pushed to the brink

#91

Post by rdtsc »

oatmeal1 wrote: post #77

People are seriously concerned with aircraft near misses when we let cars kill 45,000 Americans a year. Absurdity.

Only if the people who are concerned could be channeling their concern into solving the problem. Here, I am guessing, not many people can actually solve the problem, so we can safely be very concerned about both things simultaneously!

It would be different if it were the same exact group of people and the same budget who are in charge of plane safety, as those in charge of the car safety. We can then scold them for wasting time on planes and told them to shift focus to cars instead.

Re: Air traffic controllers pushed to the brink

#92

Post by brettproctor »

Buttons840 wrote: post #85

Do pilots have any tools detect conflicting runway use? Like, I would imagine light patterns would mark a runway as take-off, landing, or neither (plane crossing, etc). A pilot told to land on a runway not lit for landing would know something's wrong, and planes would know not to line up on a runway lit for landing, etc.

Interesting idea but no, the lights never change based on usage like this.

Re: Air traffic controllers pushed to the brink

#93

Post by rdtsc »

Buttons840 wrote: post #85

Do pilots have any tools detect conflicting runway use? Like, I would imagine light patterns would mark a runway as take-off, landing, or neither (plane crossing, etc). A pilot told to land on a runway not lit for landing would know something's wrong, and planes would know not to line up on a runway lit for landing, etc.

> I would imagine light patterns would mark a runway as take-off, landing, or neither (plane crossing, etc)

It's often both, and the direction depends on the wind. It's better for planes to take off into the wind, so as the weather changes runway usage also changes accordingly during the day.

Or were you thinking the lights would change minute by minute based on the next designated usage. That might work! "Now it's a landing runway so it's blinking blue" kind of a thing. So nobody tries to take off or cross it. Or, then when someone is supposed to take off it's blinking yellow so planes landing on it won't be confused.

Re: Air traffic controllers pushed to the brink

#94

Post by xyst »

astrostl wrote: post #46
soupfordummies wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really see how that's related though

ACT test scores have plummeted too. Combined with what we know about the physical brain changes that can be observed after a single mild infection, it all paints a potentially concerning relationship with COVID.

colleges still care about ACT? I thought SAT was the golden standard.

I remember taking the ACT many years ago and it was definitely much easier. Also not many colleges accepted it at the time. SAT was preferred.

Re: Air traffic controllers pushed to the brink

#95

Post by shermantanktop »

atleastoptimal wrote: post #69

Air traffic control seems like something that should be at the top level surveyed by humans but has many layers of automated computational safety built in. I imagine there is, but the idea that the safety of a plane is up to a single person at some point is unsettling. Having existed for many decades, the entire field should be far past the point of there being even a 0.000000001% chance of hazard.

Your expectations don’t seem to match any other field of human endeavor I can think of. Nuclear plant safety doesn’t; rocket launches, no; pharmaceutical trials, nope. Perhaps we’ll be better and smarter in the future, but…I doubt it.

Re: Air traffic controllers pushed to the brink

#96

Post by xkekjrktllss »

PaulKeeble wrote: post #29

Car accidents are up as well, less so this year than last. Both Air traffic and Car accidents have been up since 2020. Its not unique to Air traffic control. https://www.forbes.com/sites/tanyamohn/2023/09/28/road-crash... Its also happening worldwide, more air traffic near misses in the EU alongside road accidents as well. I suspect its world wide.

Trains are running more safely, efficiently, elegantly, and reliably than both cars and airplanes, and they have consistently done so with a much longer track record.

Re: Air traffic controllers pushed to the brink

#97

Post by DrFunke »

IAmGraydon wrote: post #26
nemo44x wrote: post #4

FWIW Obama’s administration instituted a diversity program for ATC that gave points to people that did poorly in school and haven’t had a job recently and penalized people with pilots licenses or military ATC experience and other qualifications. The ATC was considered “too white”. In essence they worked backwards to figure out how to hit their arbitrary diversity targets without considering the lives of everyone that…

It's sad that this is getting downvoted. What you posted is a fact and it should be addressed. We shouldn't bury our heads in the sand just because it's an issue of race.

HN's flagged comments are the most interesting.

Re: Air traffic controllers pushed to the brink

#99

Post by atleastoptimal »

shermantanktop wrote: post #95
atleastoptimal wrote: post #69

Air traffic control seems like something that should be at the top level surveyed by humans but has many layers of automated computational safety built in. I imagine there is, but the idea that the safety of a plane is up to a single person at some point is unsettling. Having existed for many decades, the entire field should be far past the point of there being even a 0.000000001% chance of hazard.

Your expectations don’t seem to match any other field of human endeavor I can think of. Nuclear plant safety doesn’t; rocket launches, no; pharmaceutical trials, nope. Perhaps we’ll be better and smarter in the future, but…I doubt it.

When was the last time Nuclear plants in the US significantly endangered human lives. 1979?

With regards to rocket launches, pharma, etc. those are all somewhat novel domains: experiments where risk is a natural part of being the first time trying a set of variables. The variables in air traffic have been the same for decades, thus the thresholds for accepted risk should be much lower.

Re: Air traffic controllers pushed to the brink

#100

Post by thanatosmin »

HPsquared wrote: post #23
DiscourseFan wrote: post #6

Very scary indeed. I think for the first time in my life I will be a little on edge flying in the US. You always hear that flying is the safest mode of public transport--well, if this is the state of the ATC, we're definitely in trouble. And you know there won't be any real change until hundreds of people die needlessly...I just hope it won't be my flight.

It's the safest per mile, but not per journey. A nice comparison to other transport methods, including taking the bus, and the Space Shuttle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviation_safety#Transport_comp...

These numbers are from 1990-2000. Airlines have gotten much safer since then, so I believe they would now be much safer per-journey, too. https://www.airlines.org/dataset/safety-record-of-u-s-air-ca...

(The difference between per-mile and per-journey is still interesting!)

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