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New York approves the first congestion toll in the US: $15 to enter Manhattan

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Re: New York approves the first congestion toll in the US: $15 to enter Manhattan

#131

Post by refulgentis »

shipscode wrote: post #106
refulgentis wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this set of people greater than 0? A) can't afford $15 B) have a car C) need the car in Manhattan D) can afford to wait N days to enter Manhattan I grew up poor -- thank you FAANG, am not anymore -- but sometimes I still feel the same icky anger I used to feel when people would make abstract arguments that presumed being poor is pure destitution, just to keep things interesting for some argument.

Ya, you just described any low margin business in downtown Manhattan. Maybe they can “afford” it but swiping $450/month from them is bs when they’re literally running the city.

When you frame it that was ($450/month) I'm more amenable, but then I check myself: am I reacting emotionally to "low margin" and the bitterness, and maybe I'm just amenable to that?

Double checking myself, the person we're looking for:

- [works at / owns] a low margin business in downtown manhattan

- has a car

- needs their car in Manhattan

- has to take their car out of Manhattan at some point

- can afford to wait N days to enter Manhattan

Looking at that...yeah I do still think that's a null set.

If you're gesturing at the more general "it sucks people gotta pay $450/month", yeah, I can imagine this being a substantial addition to a pizza place's budget if they were relying on workers driving their own cars in from Queens.

Re: New York approves the first congestion toll in the US: $15 to enter Manhattan

#132

Post by sokoloff »

fragmede wrote: post #96
DiggyJohnson wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this a serious proposal or am I missing how this is a joke?

China has an odd-even solution to this - on even days, cars with even numbered plates can drive in the city and the same for odd days. They did this for gasoline rationing in the US back in the 70's as well.

This would be marginally good for automakers. Some people would decide to buy an extra car to have on-going access.

Re: New York approves the first congestion toll in the US: $15 to enter Manhattan

#133

Post by ydnaclementine »

Let me know when the congestion toll is actually being applied. How long ago did Congress approve of removing DST? (we still have DST) I feel like I've read these "NYC approves of congestion tolls" articles 10 times in the past 4 years. Constant deja vu

Re: New York approves the first congestion toll in the US: $15 to enter Manhattan

#134

Post by pgwhalen »

Ekaros wrote: post #102
DiggyJohnson wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this a serious proposal or am I missing how this is a joke?

I still don't see what is wrong, it prevents congestion, it is fair and equal for everyone. And if they can charge based on license number, it is no more difficult to implement. Isn't the goal here to have less cars in the zone? Thus goal is preventing them from entering. And giving everyone equal chance to win right of entry is fairest model.

Shooting and killing a random 1% of drivers every day would also prevent congestion, and is fair and equal to everyone. There are other considerations though.

Re: New York approves the first congestion toll in the US: $15 to enter Manhattan

#135

Post by sundaeofshock »

xkekjrktllss wrote: post #123
philip1209 wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but this is a move in the right direction.

No, it's a scam that will backfire and ultimately end in regression. You can't just get rid of cars. You have to replace them with something. Working people will feel the pain of this because the trains are already way too overcrowded. Punitive measures in the absence of constructive measures will absolutely fail. This isn't complicated.

This would be a more reasonable argument if we were talking about a city like Dallas. Manhattan is one the most transit oriented cities in the US. Bus, ferry, and train service already exist. All that require would be an increase in frequency as people leave their cars.

Re: New York approves the first congestion toll in the US: $15 to enter Manhattan

#136

Post by sundaeofshock »

peruvian wrote: post #78
philip1209 wrote: post #24

As a Manhattan resident, I’m excited. There should be at least one city in the USA built for people instead of cars. I understand it’s not for everybody, but 75% of the residential space in the county is only zoned for insipid, paved single-family home suburban hellscapes. Leave one city for people who want a European-style walkable city.

NYC is very car centric. Just because you don't need a car to go see your friends or run errands doesn't change that. The streets are lined with cars, sometimes double parked, and collisions with pedestrians are plentiful.

Maybe if there were fewer cars on the road, there would be fewer collisions with pedestrians.

Only 22% of Manhattan’s households own cars. Maybe the people who live on the island should be prioritized over visitors.

Re: New York approves the first congestion toll in the US: $15 to enter Manhattan

#137

Post by ZoomerCretin »

sgjohnson wrote: post #92
ZoomerCretin wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most New Yorkers commute via public transit.

Not because they like it.

It's far faster to travel on subway than by car. Why wouldn't they like it?

Re: New York approves the first congestion toll in the US: $15 to enter Manhattan

#138

Post by kcplate »

windows2020 wrote: post #100

"...$2.50 that will be charged to vehicles from ride-hailing platforms such as Uber..." One simple trick can save you $12.50. NYC is out of control with taxes and regulations, but... When I lived downtown, each morning, the glass of water on my nightstand would have a little oil slick of sorts atop it. When everything was shut down at the start of the pandemic, the constant stream of vehicles stopped. My water was th…

> I doubt they will remove the tax if the day comes where all cars are electric.

All taxes are permanent.

Re: New York approves the first congestion toll in the US: $15 to enter Manhattan

#139

Post by shipscode »

refulgentis wrote: post #131
shipscode wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ya, you just described any low margin business in downtown Manhattan. Maybe they can “afford” it but swiping $450/month from them is bs when they’re literally running the city.

When you frame it that was ($450/month) I'm more amenable, but then I check myself: am I reacting emotionally to "low margin" and the bitterness, and maybe I'm just amenable to that? Double checking myself, the person we're looking for: - [works at / owns] a low margin business in downtown manhattan - has a car - needs their car in Manhattan - has to take their car out of Manhattan at some point - can afford to wait…

Wash n fold services don’t deserve to exist in lower Manhattan. Good take.

Re: New York approves the first congestion toll in the US: $15 to enter Manhattan

#140

Post by ghodith »

LargeTomato wrote: post #73
Ekaros wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because 15 is clearly unfair price for the poor people. This only benefit the rich who already are cause for majority of emissions. Lottery is absolutely fair for everyone. OCR at borders would be easy to implement. Just have a gate and diversion lines back to where car entering came from. And simple online sing-up system and rng run every night is extremely simple software project. Or if car without daily lottery ti…

Yeah, no. Your solution is significantly more complicated. A $15 surcharge to enter the richest and most congested area of NYC is hardly an unfair tax on the poor. By your logic, charging for any parking in any city is an unfair tax on the poor.

By that logic charging for anything is an unfair tax on the poor.
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