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New York approves the first congestion toll in the US: $15 to enter Manhattan

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Re: New York approves the first congestion toll in the US: $15 to enter Manhattan

#81

Post by Detrytus »

throw__away7391 wrote: post #48
gafage wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Low emission zones should be called instead "no poor people zones" which is what in practice they are.

You seem oblivious to the irony here—owning a car already puts you in the upper tier of wealth in the world. Talking about Manhattan specifically, this is already about the most expensive place in the world and the only place in the US with this scheme in place, adding more traffic isn’t going to change that so no point in using it as an example of anything. Plenty of countries that are not so car dependent have pede…

In my country millions of poor people drive 18 years old cars with average resale value of 500 USD. Maybe that's still a lot compared to people who starve in Africa, but we are not in Africa.

Re: New York approves the first congestion toll in the US: $15 to enter Manhattan

#82

Post by logicchains »

xkekjrktllss wrote: post #70
philip1209 wrote: post #24

As a Manhattan resident, I’m excited. There should be at least one city in the USA built for people instead of cars. I understand it’s not for everybody, but 75% of the residential space in the county is only zoned for insipid, paved single-family home suburban hellscapes. Leave one city for people who want a European-style walkable city.

You must be joking. Since tyrant Robert Moses, NYC is undeniably built for cars. Maybe if anything had changed since then you would have a point, but the fact is American society is wholly incapable of even maintaining, much leas building, public infrastructure due to its demented obsession with privatization and profit, so NYC's transit system is a clusterfuck of rot and in no way something to be proud of.

>public infrastructure due to its demented obsession with privatization and profit

It's not privatisation that created laws forcing a minimum number of parking spaces. You can bet if there were no zoning laws or mandatory parking space requirements US cities would be a lot more walkable, like Asian cities.

Re: New York approves the first congestion toll in the US: $15 to enter Manhattan

#83

Post by Freak_NL »

Ekaros wrote: post #60
Freak_NL wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Congestion charges are not primarily about money. The desired effect is discouraging people from driving there. The income is a nice side effect, but not the goal.

If it was about discouraging why not total ban of all non-emergency vehicles? Or maybe allow busses and trucks, but absolutely nothing else? That would solve problem much more effectively. Or maybe first come first serve system. If too many vehicles are inside border new ones have to wait until one leaves?

Probably because congestion charges are a proven system. You would have to ask the city of New York for their exact reasoning of course.

Re: New York approves the first congestion toll in the US: $15 to enter Manhattan

#84

Post by fragmede »

hedora wrote: post #51
kylehotchkiss wrote: post #16

Ahh New York, let me tell you how Californians get around this without needing a “fake plate”: * just take it off completely, who’s checking? * thick black plastic license plate cover. Everybody’s got them. * front plate optional! * buy one of those “digital” license plates and just set it to show the car logo instead of ID. Teslas do it! I’m just kidding by the way, California really needs to fix this problem too. T…

I feel I should point out that California has been installing license plate readers and using them for bulk surveillance databases for a long time. A bit over a decade ago, I counted two to four such mandatory checkpoints on my commute depending on the route I took. So, somewhere in a government database, they have a log of when I went to and returned from work that year. I’ve heard such databases go back decades and…

Use of the database is not theoretical, though this was in New York rather than California.

https://gizmodo.com/rekor-ai-system-analyzes-driving-pattern...

Re: New York approves the first congestion toll in the US: $15 to enter Manhattan

#85

Post by ZoomerCretin »

kylehotchkiss wrote: post #16

Ahh New York, let me tell you how Californians get around this without needing a “fake plate”: * just take it off completely, who’s checking? * thick black plastic license plate cover. Everybody’s got them. * front plate optional! * buy one of those “digital” license plates and just set it to show the car logo instead of ID. Teslas do it! I’m just kidding by the way, California really needs to fix this problem too. T…

From what I've seen on twitter, all of these things are already present in New York, especially among the openly corrupt placard class, the people who purchase traffic law immunity from the NYPD.

Not that anyone was enforcing traffic or parking violations in the city anyway. They have a citizen reporting system, and many violations get marked "Completed" within minutes, despite nothing ever being done about it.

Re: New York approves the first congestion toll in the US: $15 to enter Manhattan

#86

Post by lechatpito1 »

tamaharbor wrote: post #80

For those wanting to get from Long Island to points west without paying the extra toll… Good luck on those already congested Bronx and Staten Island highways.

The toll won’t be applied if you travel on the West Side Highway or FDR drive and do not enter Manhattan streets.

Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/29/nyregion/tolls-congestion...

Re: New York approves the first congestion toll in the US: $15 to enter Manhattan

#87

Post by fragmede »

thisgoesnowhere wrote: post #79
ok_dad wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They should charge like $100 / number of passengers, with cheaper exceptions for very small cars and motorbikes. Then if you fill a four passenger car, it’s only $25 for the car, but a dude in a sports car by himself pays the full charge. Busses and bigger vans are pretty much free. Delivery vehicles can afford to pay the full cost of doing business. Even better if you charge by car class, so larger vehicles are more…

The infrastructure to count passengers would be either a security nightmare because of the surveillance requirements or a inefficient mess where you have to stop for some person to manually see how many people are in the car. The system they are describing is better.

Fwiw, California's new toll expressways do this - counts people in the car at speed, and charges different rates based on that - so the technology already exists.

Re: New York approves the first congestion toll in the US: $15 to enter Manhattan

#88

Post by lwansbrough »

anonymouskimmer wrote: post #63
lwansbrough wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Urban sprawl is perhaps the most environmentally devastating behaviour that humans do.

Suburban sprawl with manicured lawns is pretty bad, too. Fortunately there are cultural shifts away from that.

Urban sprawl generally refers to the development of suburbs outside cities. That’s what I was referring to.

Re: New York approves the first congestion toll in the US: $15 to enter Manhattan

#89

Post by ZoomerCretin »

shipscode wrote: post #62
lwansbrough wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When the income pays for more transit and reduces transit times for buses, why would the public want to stop that trend?

Because the public by and large doesn’t enjoy public transit?

Most New Yorkers commute via public transit.

Re: New York approves the first congestion toll in the US: $15 to enter Manhattan

#90

Post by wenc »

e63f67dd-065b wrote: post #66

I would've preferred an auction; institute a cap of x entrances/day, and run an auction the day before to efficiently allocate the limited slots to those who are most willing to pay for it. Last-minute entrants who will need to get in for whatever reason and missed the auction will pay large premium above the market clearing price. Given that vehicle traffic is non-uniform throughout the day, maybe it would make sens…

What you're suggesting has a known solution: dynamic (i.e. surge) pricing.

There are many variations: you can do dynamic spot pricing (which is determined in real time, like Uber/Lyft surges), or reserved pricing (which is dynamic but can be locked in ahead of time, like the wholesale day-ahead electricity market which is priced by the hour or hotels/airplane tickets). Or some combination of the above.

You can do this through a phone app.

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