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Apple cuts off Beeper Mini's access

techcrunch.com

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Re: Apple cuts off Beeper Mini's access

#311

Post by Pulcinella »

Brian_K_White wrote: post #243
StressedDev wrote: post #143

One thing which is really confusing is why are Android users obsessed with iMessage? Android users can send text messages to iPhones, the can call iPhone users, and they can use third party messaging apps to communicate with iPhone users. It really isn’t clear to me why so many people are so angry they cannot use iMessage on Android.

I think they don't like being spit on and excluded by iphone users. Iphone users don't like when there are android users in group chats. The reason the iphone users don't like it is because Apple specifically and artificially makes the experience annoying and shitty in several different ways, for the iphone users not just for the Android users.

Good grief! No one is spitting on people with Android phones. If you really feel this way you need to put your screen down and spend time talking to people in real life. No one is persecuting you.

Re: Apple cuts off Beeper Mini's access

#312

Post by sbuk »

gigatexal wrote: post #260

Absolutely hilarious. Did people actually think this was going to be allowed? iMessage is a huge moat and only an act of Congress or a case verdict will force their hand. Maybe the EU legislation might.

> Maybe the EU legislation might.

Why? iMessage simply does not have the market share enjoyed by WhatsApp, Facebook Messenger or Telegram EU-wide. iMessage was temporarily removed from the DMA in September and noises coming out of the commission favour Apple's stance that it is simply not big enough to warrant inclusion as a gatekeeper for messaging apps.

Re: Apple cuts off Beeper Mini's access

#313

Post by thomastjeffery »

willseth wrote: post #238
CivBase wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 2. Since Apple has no control over the Beeper mini client, they would not consider it safe, it could easily be spying on users without their knowledge. Since I have no control over iMessage, I would not consider it safe. It could easily be spying on me without my knowledge.

If you don’t trust Apple, then obviously you don’t use it. If you do, then it shouldn't be possible for a 3rd party client to break that trust. Users only see iMessage vs no-iMessage and have no other way to identify the client to decide for themselves whether to trust it.

> If you do, then it shouldn't be possible for a 3rd party client to break that trust.

A correctly implemented end-to-end encrypted protocol would be safe for all participating clients.

The only way to break that security is by copying messages outside the protocol in the app itself.

Neither of us knows whether iMessage or Beeper Mini does this. To bring up the possibility is to criticize both apps equally.

Re: Apple cuts off Beeper Mini's access

#314

Post by cycomanic »

haswell wrote: post #194
StressedDev wrote: post #143

One thing which is really confusing is why are Android users obsessed with iMessage? Android users can send text messages to iPhones, the can call iPhone users, and they can use third party messaging apps to communicate with iPhone users. It really isn’t clear to me why so many people are so angry they cannot use iMessage on Android.

An android user in an otherwise iMessage only group chat tends to mess things up. Those Apple users tend to get frustrated by it and group chat exclusion is a real thing. It’s less about a specific feature set and more about inclusion and acceptance from/by peers. This is especially prevalent among the younger crowd. Think high school group dynamics playing out with phones. And then on top of that, photos/videos are…

I realised this the other day, a friend send me a video via mms (I'm on android) and the quality was super poor (like 90s gif like quality). I though she must have some issue with her camera or so, no next time I saw her we looked at her phone (which is an iPhone), perfectly fine video. It's just apple degrading the performance for who is not on an iPhone.

I mean just imagine they'd degrade sound to nearly noise if you'd call a non-iPhone.

Re: Apple cuts off Beeper Mini's access

#315

Post by chx »

echelon wrote: post #216
maxlin wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since apple has no control over your fire extinguisher, they sent a man to securely take it from your house and dispose of it. It could have been a bomb for all you know.

It's time that we as an industry push back against Apple and Google. The smartphone is the single most important device for modern life and society. It's news, photos, communications with loved ones, work, entertainment, food, paying for practically everything... And it's just two companies. Two companies with an iron grip over such a wide and diverse set of functionalities that, taken together, should be as inaliena…

> They take 30% of your margin.

that would be nicer than the current situation where they take away 30% of your revenue

Re: Apple cuts off Beeper Mini's access

#316

Post by SilverBirch »

SirMaster wrote: post #280

So does this also now break iMessage for older iOS devices too? I thought someone said something about that to block beeper mini, Apple would have to also block older iOS devices as that’s the method they were using that wasn’t as locked down.

There's been a lot of speculation about this, and in principle it's correct. At the end of the day Beeper can work to spoof genuine devices until its indistinguishable from an old iPhone and to block it Apple would essentially have to either force push an update to every device and enforce its installation (they probably can't/won't do this). But in reality Beeper probably leaks a load of data to Apple that Apple can use to block it and it's just a cat and mouse game between Beeper bringing in new workaround vs Apple blocking whatever they notice abusing the system. It really just depends how motivated Apple is to chase this down, and the low cost way for Apple to chase this down is.... to sue Beeper. Beeper might actually be able to outsmart them over time in engineering, but they sure as hell can't outspend them on lawyers.

Re: Apple cuts off Beeper Mini's access

#317

Post by asylteltine »

llm_nerd wrote: post #290

This was the obvious outcome. People were being willfully blind about how this "hack" works. Using an exfiltrated binary they used its blackbox functions to perform a sort of device attestation using ripped Apple device identifiers. Clearly Apple simply needs to blacklist any device attestation that this service uses, which is obviously trivial. These aren't just RNGs they're fabricating, they're sets of legitimate A…

This is actually a great point I didn’t originally consider. People could easily infiltrate the iMessage fort with spam and other stuff which at the moment requires a genuine Apple device.

Re: Apple cuts off Beeper Mini's access

#318

Post by thomastjeffery »

kccqzy wrote: post #241
SahAssar wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If signal would officially allow third party clients, non-phone-number-bound users and maybe federation that'd be great. It does not.

Does iMessage allow third party clients? No? Then why the double standard?

It looks like we are comparing standards here, and that neither passes the bar.

Re: Apple cuts off Beeper Mini's access

#319

Post by ysofunny »

CharlesW wrote: post #167
Grustaf wrote: post #81

> "if Apple truly cares about the privacy and security of their own iPhone users, why would they stop a service that enables their own users to now send encrypted messages to Android users, rather than using unsecure SMS?" - Eric Migicovsky 1. If Apple sees this as a gap, it is very obvious that they would address that themselves, rather than by allowing a hack to exploit loopholes in their architecture 2. Since Appl…

Keep in mind that this is spin — Erik's statement is ridiculous, and he knows it. To think that Apple would somehow not treat Beeper like any other bad actor hacking iMessage protocols is delulu.

but the real problem some of use have with Apple's behavior is the real underlying reasons they're doing this

I am reasonably sure that their main driver is profit which really means exploitation of people;

I consider their public arguments lies made up to cover up the fact that what they account for as profit comes from what are in the end some really ugly historical and traditional imperialistic (colonial, neocolonial, and occulted) practices

Re: Apple cuts off Beeper Mini's access

#320

Post by krater23 »

NBJack wrote: post #79
madeofpalk wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'Nobody' in the EU uses iMessage, even on iPhones. Everyone here already uses Whatsapp. This demonstrates a lack of a monopoly and how competition can flourish. Honestly - and EU-regulation that Apple faces over iMessage would just be collateral damage from EU targeting Whatsapp.

I mean, if everyone is using Whatsapp, that is effectively a monopoly. I am curious as to what the runner ups are in the EU however. Meanwhile, wait until Mr. Zuckerberg looks for new ideas to monetize their messaging ecosystem.

What do you think why suckerberg didn't done that until now? Facebook knows exactly that they need to be extremely cautiones to don't lose all their users to threema, signal or telegram.

Thats the reason why until now they only added non intrusive monetizing ideas than company accounts and so on. And when you ask me, they found a way to make whatsapp better. I can now order sushi via whatsapp. Here in Germany I know no other messenger that makes this possile.

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