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Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

reuters.com

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Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#361

Post by pydry »

ajross wrote: post #358
pydry wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://archive.is/gXGSn

There is nothing remotely like "union busting" alleged in that article (which is quite good, and largely supports my belief that this is an unreasonable escalation by Swedish labor; so much so that I maybe question if you actually read it?).

I linked to it because I thought you may not be familiar with this dispute.

I'm puzzled. Do you think when he flew in workers from other countries that this was not a strikebreaking tactic or are you saying that this did not happen?

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#362

Post by sundaeofshock »

SiempreViernes wrote: post #323
ilovetux wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In Sweden we generally prefer to avoid laws whenever possible, deferring to best practices, common sense and business agreements. I think I would've agreed with this sentiment in the past. However, the last 7-8 years in the US have shown that (at least in politics) rules need to be spelled out. We had a bunch of informal agreements of what people in certain positions should do or not do, but as we have seen someone…

> However, the last 7-8 years in the US have shown that (at least in politics) rules need to be spelled out. We had a bunch of informal agreements of what people in certain positions should do or not do, but as we have seen someone will eventually come around and look to test the limits. People coming round to test the limits is fine , the problem is that in the US parts of the ruling class has decided the (short ter…

I would also add that the laws in the US are very hostile to labor. For example, it is extremely difficult to organize a workplace. Even if a workplace is organized, companies can just refuse to negotiate a contract. See Starbucks…

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#363

Post by sundaeofshock »

eddtries wrote: post #20
kioleanu wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve heard some form of this from every company fighting unions. If that’s really the case, wouldn’t it be beneficial to the finances of the company overall if the union is requesting less benefits?

Unions set the lower bar but if you want to be competitive you still offer higher rates. I guess Musk could sign this and give everyone a pay cut!

It depends on the contract negotiated by the union. In theory, the union can put a floor on pay, with cap and allow individual workers to negotiate higher wages if they are so inclined. The US sports leagues offer the best example of this.

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#364

Post by peterfirefly »

pard68 wrote: post #279
cornholio wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is striking here is that the Government offices all use the services of PostNord. So Tesla has no choice over using PostNord, they are mandated by law to do so to receive their plates, yet a private interest group can arbitrarily deny them access to public services. There is a lot of verbiage about how Tesla is shooting itself in the foot for peanuts, and I guess it's a legitimate position to hold. The far large…

Especially for US investors I suspect. That this is legal and seems to be at least partially government led, is absolutely mind boggling to me.

It isn't quite legal -- it's just customary to pretend it is.

The dealership situation in the US is a good comparison -- Tesla refused to comply with the parasites in the American system and set up dealerships. Tesla managed to sell on the internet or in neighbouring states while fighting to get many of the dealership protection laws overturned. They did indeed succeed in getting some of them overturned (deemed illegal), they succeeded in getting others interpreted differently (which means that the customary interpretation was illegal), they succeeded in getting yet others changed to be less extortionary.

That fight is not quite over yet. An interesting wrinkle is that it is not actually in Tesla's interest to get rid of all those laws, as long as they are more of a bother to the competition than to Tesla ;)

Some of the stuff that is happening in Sweden/Denmark/Norway/Finland is completely legal -- some of it is even fair and reasonable. Some of it isn't and relies on selective enforcement of laws or on customary but incorrect interpretations. Some of it is according to laws that are against constitutions.

I think Tesla has a good case here, too. Tesla can fight dirty (but within the law) by making the unions unpopular AND by making it extremely clear to foreign investors that these countries don't have all that much rule of law in certain areas and are therefore risky places to invest. I wonder who happens to own a really, really big platform for spreading that kind of information...

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#365

Post by sundaeofshock »

jacquesm wrote: post #355
zdhgbdthdtv wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Swede here. You are absolutely mistaken. This is a huge deal in whole of Scandinavia. Today Finland unions joined in. The other day both Norway and Danish unions joined in. Before that, many other Swedish unions joined in. This is Tesla versus the Scandinavian model rather.

What I find interesting is that nobody at Tesla seems to be able to realize that when you go abroad you can't just export your home country's attitude to labor relations and that Tesla as a brand is suffering, not just in Sweden, but in the Nordics as a whole and in the rest of Europe as well. Even if they win they lose, and not just a little bit.

I’m sure plenty of folks at Tesla have come to this realization. I’m also sure they are smart enough to keep it themselves.

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#366

Post by cycomanic »

andsoitis wrote: post #201
cardy31 wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding is that the various unions view Tesla’s actions as a threat to how labour works in Sweden. There apparently isn’t even a minimum wage in the country as everything is governed by these collective agreements. So if they let Tesla come in and not play by the rules it could open the floodgates for other large corporations to come in and do the same, slowly eroding the system.

> So if they let Tesla come in and not play by the rules Tesla complies with the country's laws, no?

This is one of the fundamental things about Sweden which is really quite weird when you come from the outside. Much of Swedish society runs on "recommendations" (or norms as someone else put it), so technically you don't have to abide by them (i.e. under the thread of the government monopoly on violence, how we enforce laws), but everyone just does it anyway.

This was an interesting experience for me during COVID, where lots of other countries put lots of rules/laws in place, while Sweden just had "recommendations" (and lax ones at that). The way I understood it, it would have been even incredibly difficult/legally impossible for the government to impose some of the same restrictions as in other countries.

It's actually fascinating how well the Swedish society functions without these laws.

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#367

Post by buzzert »

danielovichdk wrote: post #181

Fuck these companies that think they can break the unions our former generations built for the purpose of being treated fair. Americans don't get it. We Scandinavians are not built on a cultural foundation which circles around creating our own safety nets. We are not lucky. We worked hard for it for hundreds of years. Same thing goes for Wolt or Uber etc. They are not welcome here if they can't treat workers by their…

> Americans don't get it. We Scandinavians are not built on a cultural foundation which circles around creating our own safety nets.

Worth noting that Sweden has a worse homelessness rate than the US, at 36/10k compared to 17.5/10k in the US[0]. Sweden's homelessness rate appears to be about on par with South Africa's.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_by_ho...

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#368

Post by SwedishExpat »

gruez wrote: post #343
SwedishExpat wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In those cases it would be strange to characterize the dissenters as not being "forced" into anything, even if it was a collective decision. Okay, I see, but then you could also leave your Union for zero cost. You could leave your US citizenship too, I guess, by moving. But my point is I think forcing is far too strong a word for the union meanings here. Why wouldn't you support this if you benefit from the Swedish…

>Okay, I see, but then you could also leave your Union for zero cost. Clearly it's not as simple or cheap as "zero cost", otherwise Tesla would have bribed some workers $1000 (or whatever) to defect, rather than hiring a bunch of expensive lawyers. >But my point is I think forcing is far too strong a word for the union meanings here. Why wouldn't you support this if you benefit from the Swedish model? Whether you ben…

> Clearly it's not as simple or cheap as "zero cost"

It really is! To leave a union you just leave. You'll miss out on some perks like topping up your unemployment insurance though.

> Whether you benefit from something is irrelevant to whether it's "forced" or not.

You can get most of the perks without being a member, because membership is anonymous within companies and unions have argued that everyone receives the benefits due to this! So you can have most of the perks of a union without paying "taxes", but I think it's fair to chip into the pot.

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#369

Post by jacquesm »

sundaeofshock wrote: post #365
jacquesm wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I find interesting is that nobody at Tesla seems to be able to realize that when you go abroad you can't just export your home country's attitude to labor relations and that Tesla as a brand is suffering, not just in Sweden, but in the Nordics as a whole and in the rest of Europe as well. Even if they win they lose, and not just a little bit.

I’m sure plenty of folks at Tesla have come to this realization. I’m also sure they are smart enough to keep it themselves.

That's what you get when you're surrounded by 'yes' people. It's one of the main reasons that power corrupts: you no longer have anything to calibrate with.

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#370

Post by pard68 »

aforwardslash wrote: post #319
pard68 wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? They pay taxes. They pay shipping. Why do you also have to pay extortion fees?

Just because you pay something, it does not give you free reign to go against the local customs and traditions. Go to a cinema, buy a ticket and be loud and obnoxious; see how fast they throw you out, regardless of having paid. Its not illegal to be obnoxious, but it is frowned upon.

This is a false dichotomy.

This is buying a ticket to the movie and then a mobster taking another fee at the door.

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