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Lithium “shortage” bubble implodes again

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Re: Lithium “shortage” bubble implodes again

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trading in commodities futures has a point, but it has gotten absolutely ridiculous in scope. The market participants used to be farm collectives, mining companies on the one and large wholesalers and consumers on the other side as a way for both to hedge against price swings... but that's no longer the case. Hell even if you just look at the last 10 years, trading volume has exploded by ~3x (futures) / ~5x (options)…

There's a lot to be said for this position. Here's an NBER study from 2014 on the financialization of commodity prices. There is substantially more volatility in commodity prices than in the underlying production and consumption. Sometimes, what's happening in markets is going in the opposite direction as the real world commodity. Another related study.[2] Studies agree that the tail is wagging the dog, but there is…

> Another related study.[2]

Thanks. JFC, that one was mind blowing:

> Last year, production increased to 30.2 billion barrels, but these futures markets alone swelled to 541.6 billion barrels, becoming eighteen times bigger than the global physical output.

So, to put it clear: on average, before reaching a refinery, each barrel of oil that ends up there changed hands eighteen times, with each step extracting wealth (in the form of buy/sell price spread) along the way - for zero gain for both the producers and the consumers of the oil. And yet, everyone seems happy with it.

> but there is no agreement on what to do about it.

If you ask me personally, the answer is easy: burn the entire thing down and restrict the rebuilt one to actually legitimate market participants (producers, wholesalers and consumers of commodities). The current system serves no real purpose other than to enrich a very few people at the expense of everyone else, which is also the reason why this won't ever happen - the financial incentives and thus the amount of money flowing into corruption and its legal friend lobbying is just too much.

The problem is, you won't get that kind of clear-cut answer from any academic studies or even most political parties outside of the far-left (like me) who criticize it on the very real effort this looting has on poor people and the far-right who tends to focus more on the conspiratorial part. It's in the end a question of political ideology and of how independent science, journalism and politics can actually be when faced with billions if not trillions of dollars of financial interests.

Re: Lithium “shortage” bubble implodes again

#162

Commodity prices fluctuate wildly. Fundamentals have very little to do with it.

You're right but it's a bit of both. There was a real shortage, we're just now slowly coming out of it. Prices are falling in anticipation because one can already see the mining capacity that's being added.

Could be. Commodities markets do have lots of speculators with no financial stake at all in the underlying commodity.

Re: Lithium “shortage” bubble implodes again

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a lot to be said for this position. Here's an NBER study from 2014 on the financialization of commodity prices. There is substantially more volatility in commodity prices than in the underlying production and consumption. Sometimes, what's happening in markets is going in the opposite direction as the real world commodity. Another related study.[2] Studies agree that the tail is wagging the dog, but there is…

> Another related study.[2] Thanks. JFC, that one was mind blowing: > Last year, production increased to 30.2 billion barrels, but these futures markets alone swelled to 541.6 billion barrels, becoming eighteen times bigger than the global physical output. So, to put it clear: on average, before reaching a refinery, each barrel of oil that ends up there changed hands eighteen times , with each step extracting wealth…

The trouble is, some of the alternatives are worse. Agricultural product buyers who control the path by which products are moved (grain elevators, stockyards, etc.) are in a stronger position than farmers. So they can negotiate prices below the "market" with farmers. There are farmers demanding that the US government require the big buyers (especially Cargill) to use publicly traded markets so they can't squeeze farmers so hard.

There's history here going back to at least 1870 or so.

Re: Lithium “shortage” bubble implodes again

#164

Worlds largest lithium deposit found in NV, a state which is 90% government owned, and we're having trouble deciding what to do. Other countries are probably going like - wow, they just found a Lithium mine and they're just going to sit on it... and they are asking us to ramp up production???

Construction of the lithium mine at Thacker Pass began in June, and it is expected to start producing lithium by 2026. There is a (super nutty ) environmentalist group and some Native Americans protesting and trying to delay the mine, but it looks like they have so far been unsuccessful at convincing judges, and blockers have been getting cleared out. I consider myself an environmentalist, so I'm a bit sensitive abou…

> only as many humans as the hunter-and-gatherer lifestyle can support

They should start reducing the population with themselves, obviously

Re: Lithium “shortage” bubble implodes again

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Another related study.[2] Thanks. JFC, that one was mind blowing: > Last year, production increased to 30.2 billion barrels, but these futures markets alone swelled to 541.6 billion barrels, becoming eighteen times bigger than the global physical output. So, to put it clear: on average, before reaching a refinery, each barrel of oil that ends up there changed hands eighteen times , with each step extracting wealth…

The trouble is, some of the alternatives are worse. Agricultural product buyers who control the path by which products are moved (grain elevators, stockyards, etc.) are in a stronger position than farmers. So they can negotiate prices below the "market" with farmers. There are farmers demanding that the US government require the big buyers (especially Cargill) to use publicly traded markets so they can't squeeze farm…

Time to break them up, then. Monopolies are just as bad when they are consuming entities rather than producing (or selling) entities.

Re: Lithium “shortage” bubble implodes again

#166
post #35

As famously predicted by Julian Simon back in the 70s and 80s: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon–Ehrlich_wager

Its kind of interesting how england as they knew it then really doesn’t exist anymore today thanks to things like hong kong and brexit.

Hong Kong is largely irrelevant to any comparison of England in the 1980s and today, while the largest changes in the country would be rightly put down to the effects of a transition to services, ending of the cold war and membership of the European Union.

Brexit, not so much despite the sound and fury.

Re: Lithium “shortage” bubble implodes again

#167
post #73

I guess nobody told Energizer. https://camelcamelcamel.com/product/B01C4PP8FK?cpf=amazon-ne... My Nest smoke detectors demand these specific batteries. They were all installed around the same time, so they all come due at once, at a cost of ~$200.

How long do they last? Normal lithium ion powered smoked detectors will last 10 years between battery changes.

That's not lithium ion batteries. That's lithium batteries which are not rechargeable so you have to buy new ones when they run out of charge.

Re: Lithium “shortage” bubble implodes again

#168
Back in the day, dinosaurs roamed, and the Model S was almost out. I had a special interest in EV conversions. 1 of the vlogs I watched had this idea, 'if we buy into lithium, then lithium batteries as they blow up in popularity, we should make lots of money'

But the argument, 'there really isnt much lithium in a battery, there's loads of lithium, albeit maybe not in good forms(pure lithium go boom).' and so the investment was a poor idea.

That's all this is, people think 'omg lithium ion batteries are the future' lets try to corner the market and then they fail. There will never be a lithium shortage.It's not common like iron or carbon. It's about as common as silicon or chlorine. More common then copper, zinc, nickel.

Re: Lithium “shortage” bubble implodes again

#169
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His attention span.

LOL.

Not being glib. I’ve read quite a bit of Taleb’s stuff and it sounds like an observation based on how long he’s been aware of the market.

Usually if he’s talking about history so if he meant some long term based on analysis, I would expect him to call it out.

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