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Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and Danish unions join in

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Re: Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and Danish unions join in

#441

Post by ajkjk »

throwawa14223 wrote: post #35
ajkjk wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Striking should be ubiquitous; employees should be in unions by default with no voting required.

Why would you abridge my freedom of association by forcing me to be part of a group I have no desire to join?

The way I would do it is simply: no matter what, the employees get to vote down things their managers do. They can vote to do nothing, have no organizing body, and pay no dues, but they still get to vote, so if they want to prevent their bosses from doing something exploitative to them, they get to.

This model does not put you in a group anymore than being an American citizen puts you in a group by giving you the right to vote on things. In my version it is like how you get to be in a political party if you want to and not be in one if you don't, but you get to vote either way. The right to have some say against your manager's power in your life (short of quitting, that is) should be unassailable.

The fact that quitting is "all or nothing", and often not an option to people because the cost of finding a new job is high and often prohibitive to specifically the people who are most disenfranchised, makes it a poor and almost useless way to exercise power. Unions allow, in principal, for there to be intermediate pressures between "quitting" and "asking nicely".

Re: Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and Danish unions join in

#442

Post by distances »

robertlagrant wrote: post #351
distances wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's just one company that doesn't play ball so a full strike wouldn't be appropriate reaction, especially as employers' organization apparently isn't a participant here. Say, striking dockworkers can paralyze the whole economy, all sectors. It's not a step to be taken lightly.

It's not just one company "not playing ball". Spotify, with ten times as many affected employees in Sweden, also doesn't have an agreement. > It's not a step to be taken lightly. Well, there's no balancing downside to doing it this way. Workers still get paid. So they can do this pretty lightly, assuming their employers allow them to just discriminate against certain customers.

> Well, there's no balancing downside to doing it this way.

With the dockworkers example there is a massive downside: you mess up all industries doing any export or import. You really need a large buy-in before doing something that can mess up all unrelated industries, and thus potentially employment. In a small country no union operates in a vacuum, you'd quickly lose all goodwill.

Edit: I think I answered off your point, which was about the specific company. Yes I don't think there's any big downside now, but if Tesla was playing by the book they would have the industry behind them. They are just choosing a more difficult way.

Re: Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and Danish unions join in

#443

Post by fzeroracer »

vaidhy wrote: post #283

It is interesting to read the comments. Why do some americans view the strike action in a black/white perspective? If you define a strike very narrowly as to stop work with (partial) loss of pay, then this does not make sense. But a strike can be against one entity, one action or even one person. The workers can say "I will not do this action" and that is a strike too.

Speaking as an American, it's because we have a long history of collaborative efforts between capital and government to depress or destroy labor movements. The black/white perspectives on strikes is one such example, particularly because almost all of our jobs start with some anti-labor training [1]. There was also the air traffic controller strike that was deemed illegal by Ronald Reagan [2] and the more recent efforts by companies such as Starbucks outright shuttering stores or harassing employees to stop unionization.

Within this framework, there's a lot of people who view strikes as not just wrong but morally wrong.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2j3ZNUxqo9M (this is an older example, but this is the kind of stuff I saw when I worked for target long ago)

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Air_Traffic_Contr...

Re: Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and Danish unions join in

#444

Post by RestlessMind »

logifail wrote: post #335
mattlutze wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counterpoint: if something pretty much works without a law being in place, why write a law? Laws are never perfect, and writing one just for the sake of it both makes complying with the law more complex and opens opportunities for people with money to create legal moats around interpretations and case law precedence.

> Counterpoint: if something pretty much works without a law being in place, why write a law? Well, I'll see that and raise you: If remuneration packages at Tesla (including in Scandinavia) "pretty much works" (in the sense that Tesla are able to attract and retain talent, which they apparently are), why write a collective bargaining agreement?

Because they are working in the short term. Once corporations find a wedge, it's only a matter of time before they exploit it and reduce wages over the long run. I a glad that unions are taking a long view on this matter.

Re: Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and Danish unions join in

#445

Post by simion314 »

bitshiftfaced wrote: post #371
simion314 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>is there anything preventing the government from a legislative solution? Just mandate collective agreements? I am not sure, but it is ironic when the guys complaining about over regulation want to regulate a free market that worked well in those countries for so long. I did not seen that much support for Tesla in Europe communities so the US government would be needed to have any chance to force such regulations.

Seems to me that the core issue right now is that of Swedish regulation requiring Tesla to follow a license plate procedure, but then not providing any method for Tesla to follow that regulation and obtain the license plates.

That is not the core issue, it is one of the many issues. Tesla cars will not arrive in Sweden, will not be repaired, parts will bot be delivered.

Re: Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and Danish unions join in

#446

Post by vaidhy »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #368
vaidhy wrote: post #283

It is interesting to read the comments. Why do some americans view the strike action in a black/white perspective? If you define a strike very narrowly as to stop work with (partial) loss of pay, then this does not make sense. But a strike can be against one entity, one action or even one person. The workers can say "I will not do this action" and that is a strike too.

>But a strike can be against one entity, one action or even one person. For the purposes of a business negotiation, a strike means to refuse to sell your labor for under a certain price. Picking and choosing who you refuse to sell your labor to quickly encroaches on tribalism that has historically played out with negative consequences. I imagine the reason this has not gone badly (that I know of, I guess) is Sweden i…

>For the purposes of a business negotiation, a strike means to refuse to sell your labor for under a certain price. Picking and choosing who you refuse to sell your labor to quickly encroaches on tribalism that has historically played out with negative consequences.

When hollywood actors did a strike in support of the writers, it is to enable business negotiations for the writers, not necessarily for the actors. Worker solidarity means that if I support your cause today and I face similar situation tomorrow, you will support me. It sounds to me like collective action to force a business to negotiate.

I do not understand the tribalism argument very well. All of us form tribes and our social structure depends on it. Tribes are formed based on membership (either by birth, where you live, your political beliefs, your economic status etc) and you can argue whether that membership is a good thing for society, but I do not believe the argument is whether tribes are good or bad. They just are.

Re: Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and Danish unions join in

#447

Post by bitshiftfaced »

simion314 wrote: post #445
bitshiftfaced wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems to me that the core issue right now is that of Swedish regulation requiring Tesla to follow a license plate procedure, but then not providing any method for Tesla to follow that regulation and obtain the license plates.

That is not the core issue, it is one of the many issues. Tesla cars will not arrive in Sweden, will not be repaired, parts will bot be delivered.

Why would that be an issue? Isn't that just the normal cultural expectations surrounding how companies and labor unions handle disputes? What I'm saying is that the license plate issue has to do with a government entity failing to perform its function, something outside the scope of Tesla and the union.

Re: Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and Danish unions join in

#448

Post by lotsofpulp »

vaidhy wrote: post #446
lotsofpulp wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But a strike can be against one entity, one action or even one person. For the purposes of a business negotiation, a strike means to refuse to sell your labor for under a certain price. Picking and choosing who you refuse to sell your labor to quickly encroaches on tribalism that has historically played out with negative consequences. I imagine the reason this has not gone badly (that I know of, I guess) is Sweden i…

>For the purposes of a business negotiation, a strike means to refuse to sell your labor for under a certain price. Picking and choosing who you refuse to sell your labor to quickly encroaches on tribalism that has historically played out with negative consequences. When hollywood actors did a strike in support of the writers, it is to enable business negotiations for the writers, not necessarily for the actors. Work…

>I do not understand the tribalism argument very well.

The Hollywood actors' union did not stop selling to a specific entity, they stopped work across the board. Also, I think their most recent strike was because their contract ended.

Another difference is also negotiating a pure luxury good (entertainment), versus negotiating access to legally required license plates.

Re: Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and Danish unions join in

#449

Post by jacquesm »

peterfirefly wrote: post #416
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's not a strike if you're just refusing service to a customer...a strike...is you downing tools and stopping working This hasn't been what a strike has meant in Scandinavia for a century. I'm American. I broadly think unions are ineffective and corrupt. But it's ridiculous to claim this strike is unprecedented. Even the pattern of an American company being flummoxed by it is deeply precedented. If you want to do…

> If you want to do business in the Nordic countries, you respect the collective-bargaining process. And if you want to do business in many other countries, you have to pay bribes -- or campaign contributions or hire someone's incompetent nephew or hire people with the right "discriminated against" skin colour. That's not legal, either.

Are you seriously comparing collective bargaining with bribing officials?

Re: Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and Danish unions join in

#450

Post by [deleted] »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #390
martin8412 wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, your classification truly does not matter in the slightest. This is legal in the Nordics. You know how you make it illegal? By signing the CBA, which if you're already providing better terms, doesn't change anything.

Almost all of the comments on this forum, or any online forum do not matter in the slightest. But perhaps we can use forums to discuss ideas.

[deleted]
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