Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and Danish unions join in • Hacker News Board

Re: Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and Danish unions join in

#331

Post by distances » Thu, Dec 07, 2023, 5:34 PM UTC

robertlagrant wrote: post #245

distances wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the contrary, it's a crucial part of collective bargaining. You have to be large enough to bargain effectively. Companies in the Nordics aren't alone either, they have employers' organizations where a whole sector of employers band together to bargain with the unions. These discussions then produce collective agreements that bind the whole sector for a given timespan. It might sound alien to some, but it has guara…

I'm not saying they shouldn't go on strike. I'm saying that they aren't on strike, as they're still working. Refusing to service one customer isn't striking.

It's just one company that doesn't play ball so a full strike wouldn't be appropriate reaction, especially as employers' organization apparently isn't a participant here. Say, striking dockworkers can paralyze the whole economy, all sectors. It's not a step to be taken lightly.

Re: Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and Danish unions join in

#332

Post by fragmede » Thu, Dec 07, 2023, 5:35 PM UTC

johngladtj wrote: post #168

jmyeet wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every work condition you take for grant--8 hour days, weekends, vacations, paid leave, to name a few--is the fruit of the labor movement, labor organization and strikes. Consider the Homestead strike [1] where companies hired private mercenaries (ie the Pinkertons) to commit violence to break the strike. People died. Consider US auto makers [2]: > Tesla workers earn on average about $55 an hour in wages and benefits,…

I find it funny how in every example I have ever seen of "companies oppressing poor workers on strike" every single time the workers started it by doing illegal and wrong things, and attempting to force the company to give in by force. Every. Single. Time. If someone can give me one example where the poor oppressed strikers were 100% in the right and did not actually start with the violence or credible threat of viol…

To my knowledge, healthcare workers at Kaiser Permanente of California haven't burned any buildings down or had a brawl in the middle of the parking lot. The Starbucks workers strike was also non-violent. The most recent Writers guild of America strike didn't seem violent to me, but maybe that's Hollywood. The Oakland teachers union strike also didn't result in bloodshed as far as I know, but also it's Oakland.

Re: Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and Danish unions join in

#333

Post by callalex » Thu, Dec 07, 2023, 5:35 PM UTC

vaidhy wrote: post #283

It is interesting to read the comments. Why do some americans view the strike action in a black/white perspective? If you define a strike very narrowly as to stop work with (partial) loss of pay, then this does not make sense. But a strike can be against one entity, one action or even one person. The workers can say "I will not do this action" and that is a strike too.

The people here honestly, genuinely believe that they will be the next Musk if they just code hard enough.

Re: Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and Danish unions join in

#334

Post by slantedview » Thu, Dec 07, 2023, 5:37 PM UTC

throwawa14223 wrote: post #134

slantedview wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Opt-in by default. Not all unions are great, but the median unionized worker earns more than a non-unionized worker in the same field. So the main reason people wouldn't want to join a union is because they've been conditioned to think they're bad, against their own economic interests.

I feel like you're reducing everything to material conditions. Joining a union would (statistically) help me economically but my objections to being in a union again are all moral convictions. Perhaps workers are optimizing for concerns you do not share?

Yes, I am reducing unions to economic concerns, but I should mention that most people's "moral" objection to unions is conditioned by parties whose interest is solely economic. When the Koch foundation buys airtime on news programs (effectively) to spread the idea that unions are evil and striking is immoral, it's not because they actually care about morals, it's because unions shift the economic playing field in a way that they don't like.

Re: Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and Danish unions join in

#335

Post by logifail » Thu, Dec 07, 2023, 5:37 PM UTC

mattlutze wrote: post #313

logifail wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> has left to the industry and unions to agree on a lot of stuff (From the outside) it seems hard to understand why something should be effectively be mandatory without being officially mandatory. If collective agreements are to be mandatory, the government should just pass a law making them mandatory, then that's done. Hiding behind the claim "it's up to each employer and their employees" to decide is just silly.

Counterpoint: if something pretty much works without a law being in place, why write a law? Laws are never perfect, and writing one just for the sake of it both makes complying with the law more complex and opens opportunities for people with money to create legal moats around interpretations and case law precedence.

> Counterpoint: if something pretty much works without a law being in place, why write a law?

Well, I'll see that and raise you:

If remuneration packages at Tesla (including in Scandinavia) "pretty much works" (in the sense that Tesla are able to attract and retain talent, which they apparently are), why write a collective bargaining agreement?

Re: Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and Danish unions join in

#336

Post by Apocryphon » Thu, Dec 07, 2023, 5:38 PM UTC

renewiltord wrote: post #201

actionfromafar wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, in the US the employers hired the Pinkertons, so that evens out maybe?

Does it? It seems like a world without violent worker repression and criminal organized labour is mostly possible. Many things have a use lifetime. I'm sure once upon a time, I would have needed a personal firearm to protect myself out on the Wild West but today I have lived more than a decade in the US unarmed and no bandits have accosted me yet. No doubt organized labour had value once and perhaps even the crime lo…

You’re arguing against the utility of the Second Amendment here which already puts you out of step with the entirety of American custom and political culture. Good luck trying to apply logic or reason against entrenched tradition and identity.

> smashing the criminal element within has been good for America

That’s good, sounds like organized labor is now free to exist without any crime issues.

Re: Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and Danish unions join in

#337

Post by Moiman » Thu, Dec 07, 2023, 5:39 PM UTC

wyager wrote: post #289

nemothekid wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Required by who ? What is this entity that compels government employees to work? Is it Tesla? If so why? Or is it their citizens, who are by and large supportive of this movement?

> What is this entity that compels government employees to work? Typically the entity that compels employees to to their job (or be fired) is their employer. That is, in fact, the defining relationship between employees and employers.

It is illegal to fire employees who are participating in lawful strike.

Re: Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and Danish unions join in

#338

Post by slantedview » Thu, Dec 07, 2023, 5:39 PM UTC

throwawa14223 wrote: post #315

BobaFloutist wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would it be ok if you were upfront about the possibility of striking? That seems like a very achievable adaptation.

I think that would be acceptable to me assuming I had assurances I wouldn't be asked to participate or be represented by union actions that would be violent. No threats, no breaking things, no vandalism, etc.

Strikes are generally non violent, and the majority of times that they become violent, it's instigated by strike breakers hired by the company (including police). There is over a hundred years of history of this - plenty for you to read if you want to learn more.

Re: Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and Danish unions join in

#339

Post by s0l1dsnak3123 » Thu, Dec 07, 2023, 5:40 PM UTC

encom wrote: post #280

timwaagh wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not for a second believe ordinary workers can outright buy Teslas in Sweden or Denmark.

I'm not sure what's the definition of an "ordinary worker", but as an electrician in Denmark I could absolutely have a Tesla if I wanted to. Which I don't, I really like my Leaf.

So in the UK most sparkies (as we call them :D) probably could as well.

But what I think people in the US (and many in the UK) don't grasp, is that someone (plucking an example out of the air) who is a manager of a retail shop in a small town in Sweden could afford a car like a Tesla. Partly because of the strong democratic socialist economic historical context underpinning decades of economic and workplace policy, and partly because of the decades-long subsidy and support of EV sales and supporting infrastructure in these countries making them cheaper and more practical than in many other countries.

This couldn't be further from the truth in the USA, because work life there has been going in the opposite direction effectively since the cold war.

Re: Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and Danish unions join in

#340

Post by eddtries » Thu, Dec 07, 2023, 5:40 PM UTC

wil421 wrote: post #270

eddtries wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> plays ball Which is the case for 99% of companies. It’s only American ones internationally expanding who don’t realise other economies operate differently that get stung with this.

Why does everyone complain like it is an American issue? It’s an Elon issue, he hates unions and does it very publicly. For decades, Ford and others have factories in Europe and have union members.

Because the previous examples of companies trying to avoid collective agreements have been American (notably Toys'R'Us and McDonalds)