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Governments spying on Apple, Google users through push notifications

reuters.com

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Re: Governments spying on Apple, Google users through push notifications

#421

Post by autoexec »

rootusrootus wrote: post #337
TheRealDunkirk wrote: post #303

It's crazy to me that so much effort is being expended pretending that companies and the government are doing anything in the name of privacy, when we have all the proof by Assange and Snowden that they're doing realtime surveillance of ALL communications, 24x7 -- no matter what any laws say -- and we don't even talk about it any more. What's the point of any of this? All we can do is assume that our every position,…

I don't think many people actually care much about privacy. There are a few, and they're loud. But look at what matters in politics -- both major political tribes in the US are only interested in privacy and protection from the government as it relates to their own interest, but they are perfectly happy to use that power against their perceived opponents.

> I don't think many people actually care much about privacy.

People absolutely care about their privacy. If you don't believe me try going outside and following someone in public with a video camera. They'll scream at you about how horrible and illegal what you're doing is. They'll probably call the police on you. Upset as they are, they ignore the fact that they've been being filmed from the moment they stepped outside and have in fact been being extensively tracked and recorded even while they were still inside their homes.

People don't understand the extent that their privacy is being violated. It's mostly out of sight/out of mind. They also don't understand the impact the data they give up has on their daily lives. They aren't allowed to know when or how much that data costs them. The moment they are confronted with the reality of the situation, they suddenly care very much about their privacy. Mostly they feel powerless against the invasion of their privacy.

Re: Governments spying on Apple, Google users through push notifications

#422

Post by ddalex »

JohnFen wrote: post #213
ddalex wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure why down voted. Even the quoted article states: > Border Patrol, nevertheless, cannot pull anyone over without “reasonable suspicion” of an immigration violation or crime (reasonable suspicion is more than just a “hunch”). Similarly, Border Patrol cannot search vehicles in the 100-mile zone without a warrant or “probable cause” (a reasonable belief, based on the circumstances, that an immigration violation o…

In practice, "reasonable suspicion" means "whenever they want."

If you're taking this view, any armed forces can do whatever they want and the constitution is just a piece of paper.

In practice, the evidence gathered by unlawful searches is going to be discarded in a court of law. Other wise said, there is no carving in penal law for "100 miles " from the border.

Re: Governments spying on Apple, Google users through push notifications

#423

Post by dfawcus »

daveoc64 wrote: post #363
Klonoar wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless I’m mistaken - and I might be or it may have changed - Signal notifications on iOS just tell the app “hey, something happened, call the service and check for updates”. I.e, the push notification itself contains little to nothing in terms of data/metadata. You can also of course decrypt a notification by shipping an extension to do so, and maybe Signal does - it’s been awhile since I poked around it. I’d just b…

What you've said is correct, but it doesn't stop the attack vector described. If the question to Apple or Google is "who received a notification from Signal at 17:15 UTC?" then even if the notification is “hey, something happened, call the service and check for updates”, you've got your answer.

To defeat it, one would have to regularly send cover traffic (i.e. push messages saying "nothing happened"), and accept that notification of messages may be delayed until that regular period.

i.e. the app sends its push token to its back end, together with a "use by" date. The server sends a push by that time, even if there is nothing to send. In the case of receiving such a "nothing happened" push, the app gets a new token, and informs the back end server.

The constraint there is how frequently Apple / Google will allow pushes, and how well the respective central server can scale to sending all of those dummy notifications.

The cost for the mobile being extra data use, and extra battery from the forced wake ups. So it may have to be a configurable option in the app.

So do Apple / Google allow at least one notification per hour?

Re: Governments spying on Apple, Google users through push notifications

#424

Post by hedora »

I_Am_Nous wrote: post #308
g-b-r wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If with that you mean that users should be aware of the risks ok, if that they should accept them as inevitable no. What's funded by tracking as much as possible is the current perverse part of internet, it definitely wasn't always like that and doesn't need to be. I hope that that perspective comes from someone that hasn't lived anything before Facebook.

I'm not saying things shouldn't change, just that the reality we live in right now is that using the internet means you are tracked. Of course we shouldn't just accept that and not push back, and of course we should build things like the internet we had before social media "became the internet". Being aware of the tracking and risks means people can make efforts to reduce the tracking, but it's almost becoming imposs…

This requires legislation, and a court system that upholds the law.

In the US, the courts just decided there's no right to privacy (despite what the 4th amendment says) as part of rolling back Roe v. Wade.

So, the path forward is to vote in legislators that respect basic human rights, followed by court packing (or just impeaching the judges that have been publicly accepting bribes and failing to recuse themselves on cases where they have a clear conflict of interest).

Since the above is supported by way more than 50% of the US population, the main obstacles are gerrymandering and ending the currently common practice of appointing blatently corrupt judges to state supreme courts (and also restoring recently stripped powers to state governors, since they're elected via simple majority).

Re: Governments spying on Apple, Google users through push notifications

#425

Post by jay-barronville »

Legitimately scary stuff but not surprising. Snowden risked everything to tell us what was going on and where things were headed yet here we are. At this point, it seems the only way to not be subject to this type of treatment by our governments is to completely unplug from the system, but of course, practically speaking, this isn’t feasible for the overwhelming majority of our society. So what are the alternatives here?

Re: Governments spying on Apple, Google users through push notifications

#426

Post by DanAtC »

jaywalk wrote: post #417
onionisafruit wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I should have been more specific. Although they could use IP geolocation, they can also get data from the cell carrier that delivered the notification to that IP address. So a gov finds that IP address 7.8.9.0 received one of these notifications at 12:34. They then see that 7.8.9.0 is one of ATT’s addresses. They go to ATT and learn that address was used by their customer onionisafruit at 12:34 and the device was 5ms…

Notifications aren't sent to IP addresses, so none of this matters.

Of course they are, how else would they be sent?

Re: Governments spying on Apple, Google users through push notifications

#427

Post by hollowturtle »

darigo wrote: post #401
TheRealDunkirk wrote: post #303

It's crazy to me that so much effort is being expended pretending that companies and the government are doing anything in the name of privacy, when we have all the proof by Assange and Snowden that they're doing realtime surveillance of ALL communications, 24x7 -- no matter what any laws say -- and we don't even talk about it any more. What's the point of any of this? All we can do is assume that our every position,…

Assembly 2023 had a fantastic presentation[1] from @BackTheBunny (from X) about precisely this. When the US really wants to do something, the constitution is a parchment guarantee and the media runs cover for them. Many US gov agencies are basically supranational and extrajudicial. I don't agree with everything he said but the information was well presented and enjoyable. [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUTcIXu…

What Crypto and DeFi has to do with State Surveillance? Or anything about the comment above? I don’t understand

Re: Governments spying on Apple, Google users through push notifications

#428

Post by nonethewiser »

TheRealDunkirk wrote: post #303

It's crazy to me that so much effort is being expended pretending that companies and the government are doing anything in the name of privacy, when we have all the proof by Assange and Snowden that they're doing realtime surveillance of ALL communications, 24x7 -- no matter what any laws say -- and we don't even talk about it any more. What's the point of any of this? All we can do is assume that our every position,…

Unfortunately, the constitution isnt very clear on privacy. It should be. There should be a new amendment which makes it crystal clear that the Patriot Act, for example, is completely unconstitutional.

But what the 14th amendment says is that people and their property are protected against searches by the government wherever there is a “reasonable expectation of privacy.” That and some combination of other details imply a right to privacy, but its mot very explicit and clearly limited. In light of this, the Supreme Court has actually ruled quite favorably In practice, the Supreme Court has actually ruled pretty favorably towards a right to privacy, considering whats actually in the constitution.

Re: Governments spying on Apple, Google users through push notifications

#430

Post by AnthonyMouse »

wildrhythms wrote: post #396
colordrops wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US government isn't really democratically controlled, which is obvious to anyone paying attention, and this Princeton paper proves it: https://www.princeton.edu/~mgilens/idr.pdf

The person you're replying to is making a statement about democratically accountable consolidation of power; not necessarily today's current (and broken) implementations of such things.

No non-broken implementation of such things is known to exist. Democracy itself is the tyranny of the majority even when majority rule is what is actually happening. Concentration of power has to be prevented because of this, not in spite of it.
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