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Governments spying on Apple, Google users through push notifications

reuters.com

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Re: Governments spying on Apple, Google users through push notifications

#401

Post by darigo »

TheRealDunkirk wrote: post #303

It's crazy to me that so much effort is being expended pretending that companies and the government are doing anything in the name of privacy, when we have all the proof by Assange and Snowden that they're doing realtime surveillance of ALL communications, 24x7 -- no matter what any laws say -- and we don't even talk about it any more. What's the point of any of this? All we can do is assume that our every position,…

Assembly 2023 had a fantastic presentation[1] from @BackTheBunny (from X) about precisely this. When the US really wants to do something, the constitution is a parchment guarantee and the media runs cover for them. Many US gov agencies are basically supranational and extrajudicial.

I don't agree with everything he said but the information was well presented and enjoyable.

[1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUTcIXuw2f0

Re: Governments spying on Apple, Google users through push notifications

#402

Post by anigbrowl »

zeppelin101 wrote: post #399

This reminds me, whatever happened to mesh networks? If you wanted to be out and about in public, you could simply carry a very anonymized device that had only more basic abilities. But among those abilities, you could certain send messages and maybe even smaller-sized files - all over a mesh network. Feds could infiltrate it, but it wouldn't be nearly as trivial as it is right now. And users could rotate their devic…

They're still a thing, and more of a happening thing than ever because they're useful for IOT. There's a bunch of private LoRa network operators offering a mix of free and paid services. Amazon is already a large player in this space because of their delivery network.

Re: Governments spying on Apple, Google users through push notifications

#403

Post by alexjm »

world2vec wrote: post #61

Pardon my ignorance but would block all push notifications stop this specific act of surveillance? I usually don't need any notifications' content on the screen apart from "you have a new message on , go check it". Or is that what's being discussed here?

A push notification is generally what creates the "you have a new message on " red bubble.

Re: Governments spying on Apple, Google users through push notifications

#404

Post by autoexec »

Nifty3929 wrote: post #310
TheRealDunkirk wrote: post #303

It's crazy to me that so much effort is being expended pretending that companies and the government are doing anything in the name of privacy, when we have all the proof by Assange and Snowden that they're doing realtime surveillance of ALL communications, 24x7 -- no matter what any laws say -- and we don't even talk about it any more. What's the point of any of this? All we can do is assume that our every position,…

I think where we go wrong is to allow the conversation to revolve around what evil corporations are doing with our information, rather than what the evil government is doing with it. I believe the risk to our freedom is much greater from the latter. Of course governments can extract the information from corporations that have it, but let's keep the spotlight on the government itself, and use THAT as a reason to give…

> I think where we go wrong is to allow the conversation to revolve around what evil corporations are doing with our information, rather than what the evil government is doing with it.

I think it would be wrong to ignore either. Especially since most of the data the government gets is from corporations.

> Corporations showing me better-targeted ads is the least of my troubles.

You're right about that. That data sure isn't only used for ads. Companies use it to decide what services you're allowed to get and under what terms. The policies a company tells you they have are different from the polices they tell others they have. Companies use it to set prices so that what you pay can be different from what your neighbor does for the same goods/services. Companies even use that data to determine how long to keep you on hold when you call them.

Employers use it to make hiring decisions. Landlords use it to decide who to rent to. It's sold to universities who use it to decide which students to accept or reject. It's sold to scammers who use it to select their victims. Extremists use it to target and harass their enemies. Lawyers use it in courtrooms as evidence in criminal cases and custody battles. Insurance companies use it to raise rates and deny claims.

The data companies are collecting about will cost you again and again in more and more aspects of your life. Ads are absolutely the least of your troubles.

Re: Governments spying on Apple, Google users through push notifications

#405

Post by standardUser »

The only way out of this mess is with new laws and that will require new lawmakers. Any other solution - relying on the kindness of corporations, toiling away with obscure technologies, gong 'off the grid' - are all foolish or unrealistic for 99% or so of people and shouldn't even be considered.

The most promising starting point is probably at the state level.

Re: Governments spying on Apple, Google users through push notifications

#406

Post by Izkata »

AshamedCaptain wrote: post #392
kyrra wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is driven entirely by battery life. Android used to allow 3rd party apps to receive push notifications, and it caused battery life to be terrible compared to Apple. Forcing a single path was done for that reason. Btw, here's the telegram team complaining about the change: https://github.com/Telegram-FOSS-Team/Telegram-FOSS/blob/mas... Facebook abused this a bunch. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/feb/01…

This complain is nonsense. Android _still_ allows background applications, the only limitation they added in that release is that such background applications have to show a notification that they are running (actually a feature if you ask me). You are still allowed to listen on a gazillion sockets perfectly fine. It's more problematic that some Android "skins" tend to kill background applications at random https://d…

> Android _still_ allows background applications, the only limitation they added in that release is that such background applications have to show a notification that they are running (actually a feature if you ask me). You are still allowed to listen on a gazillion sockets perfectly fine.

...I'm not even clear on what they're complaining about (the page github links to seems to have been changed, it describes the current state rather than what happened in 8), because this was actually a thing as far back as Android 2: you had to have one of those notifications up to prevent Android from killing your service.

Re: Governments spying on Apple, Google users through push notifications

#407

Post by rootusrootus »

alberth wrote: post #381
rootusrootus wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm probably naive, but what insights could a government gleam from Push Notifications? Looking at my own phone right now, it just got a push notification that my wife has arrived at home. That could be useful if you wanted to track my wife. > And why aren't push notifications E2EE? That's a great question. And I hope the answer is "we're on it, they will be E2EE in the next release."

Does the push notification indicate where (location) home is?

In this case, no. But as a data point it is useful at providing a named location and a timestamp. Presumably any governmental agency with access to the push notification stream can already determine my wife's home address. We could lie in the app and call some other place "Home" but I expect very few people are resorting to codewords in their mundane daily life.

Re: Governments spying on Apple, Google users through push notifications

#408

Post by haroldp »

lostNFound wrote: post #370
unethical_ban wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I bet you've committed at least a ticketable offense in the past 48 hours, unless you are a true hermit. Our laws were not designed for a society with perfect surveillance.

This is quite the proposition. You think that the average person commits a legal offense at least every 2 days? What examples are you proposing? If you count speeding, sure I guess.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1594035229

Re: Governments spying on Apple, Google users through push notifications

#409

Post by iwontberude »

soraminazuki wrote: post #397
MR4D wrote: post #62

Ron Ryden has been barking up this tree for a long time: https://www.wyden.senate.gov/issues/secret-law https://www.wyden.senate.gov/news/press-releases/wyden-colle... https://www.wyden.senate.gov/news/press-releases/wyden-intro... https://www.wyden.senate.gov/priorities/gps-act https://www.wyden.senate.gov/news/press-releases/wyden-relea...

He even inspired Snowden to expose the illegal mass surveillance programs. IIRC Snowden reached a breaking point when James Clapper, then director of national intelligence, lied under oath to Congress when pressed about domestic surveillance by senator Wyden. It's sad we don't hear more about people like this in positions of power.

Good thing there is no penalties for lying under oath anymore. That pesky rule of law was so long in the tooth.

Re: Governments spying on Apple, Google users through push notifications

#410

Post by forward1 »

Hizonner wrote: post #377
forward1 wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Parent is asking about government surveillance. You're suggesting a deviation from the norm (99.99% of users) by installing a custom operating system (which they will now also be on the hook to secure and update regularly) by developers with nothing to lose. This will greatly increase scrutiny on you, or colloquially speaking definitely put you on a watch list, the opposite of what is allegedly desired. Rather, accep…

> You're suggesting a deviation from the norm (99.99% of users) Which still leaves you in a large enough group that it's not practical to deploy full-press individualized surveillance against all of them. A group which contains a fairly large number of people who're doing it just to piss off the spies, and an even larger number of people who happen to be of no interest to you as a particular spy deciding where to app…

> Which still leaves you in a large enough group that it's not practical to deploy full-press individualized surveillance against all of them.

Assuming no advances in technology obscured from public view, of course.

> Some of them depend on this for their livelihoods.

You sort of answered your own question there. Consider whether foreign nationals writing software in near destitute are susceptible to MICE, in relation to Bay Area millionaires.

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