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Show HN: Beeper Mini – iMessage client for Android

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Re: Show HN: Beeper Mini – iMessage client for Android

#631

Post by nl »

HenryBemis wrote: post #525
WheatMillington wrote: post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does this address iMessages sent from non-iPhone devices?

If in the data sent across (via Apple servers) the IMEI and serial no of the device are also transmitted, then Apple can in that millisecond query on their various lists/inventories that this device is legit (activated device + IMEI + serial) and if all lights are green, proceed to deliver, otherwise drop it. (perhaps different sets of data can be used, but it must be something that Apple already has, and the user ha…

As someone who once bought fake airpods on ebay, I can tell you that Apple can't do this.

I spent a number of days with them where they were trying to work out if they were fake. The serial number was real but they were fairly sure the number had been taken from a real product and reused, but were unable to say for sure.

I ended up just returning them (because of the ebay return window) but found it interesting that Apple couldn't easily check this, and was very aware of the issue.

Re: Show HN: Beeper Mini – iMessage client for Android

#632

Post by smashah »

wslh wrote: post #622
smashah wrote: post #610

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever received C&D for your work? There's a big problem of OSS projects being TOS-trolled by billion dollar companies and having to shut down out of fear.

You know, your question is very interesting: no, we didn't. Anecdote: we reverse engineered several Microsoft products and before Microsoft Windows 7 launch we were contacted by Microsoft QA and they offered us support to check if our software was compatible with it! BTW, our software was installed in millions of computers around the globe. For example, Trend Micro used our software for supporting their antivirus in…

I agree. After receiving a C&D from Meta for my OSS project (along with some other maintainers from some other projects) I strongly believe adversarial interop is a basic digital right that is required to fulfil the broken or revoked promises of web 2.0

If you know anybody that can help please let me know because I want to get back to maintaining the project.

Re: Show HN: Beeper Mini – iMessage client for Android

#633

Post by barkerja »

dkarp wrote: post #624
lobochrome wrote: post #621

In principle - it's cool - but I already dread the increased iMessage spam that this will surely bring. WhatsApp is already almost useless with Notifications turned on for me. Maybe this is specific to Japanese phone numbers, but iMessage was always the safe spot where no fishing/scams happened. My mother actually got scammed out of ~2000 USD on WhatsApp. I think I hope Apple kills this fast.

I get spam messages on iMessage and never on WhatsApp, weird

I don't know if I have ever received an iMessage spam, and I have 6 addresses associated (5 emails, 1 phone number).

SMS I get spam almost daily.

Re: Show HN: Beeper Mini – iMessage client for Android

#634

Post by nl »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #558
mkingston wrote: post #554

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a brief statement which makes me think I'm missing something obvious, but it doesn't seem obvious to me. Would you please expand on that?

I think it's a bad idea to lock out unattested clients, and as long as third-party clients are accepted, spam will always be sendable. If you're not doing end-to-end encryption, you can catch it at send time by having the server reject the client for sending spam. If you're doing end-to-end encryption, the only options are the sender or the recipient, and attempting to block it at the sender would require prohibiting…

While I love the principle of accepting third-party clients, Apple clearly doesn't which make this argument fairly non-compelling for them.

Re: Show HN: Beeper Mini – iMessage client for Android

#635

Post by chefandy »

chatmasta wrote: post #473
joshstrange wrote: post #454

Beeper is a really cool idea by some cool people (people behind the Pebble smartwatch) but I've resisted using it for fear of bans. I don't want my Slack/Discord/Instagram/AppleId/etc to get banned for using something not allowed under the terms of service. How are people who use Beeper dealing with this? Are you just using dummy/test accounts that you don't care about or are you just rolling the dice. I would like t…

If you have an Apple account, why are you even using Beeper? I guess it might have some advantages for convenience (multiplexing chat apps), but is that the main selling point right now? I'd imagine the target market is Android users who want to talk to people on Apple Messages. So they can just create a new Apple account, right? (Isn't that kinda hard anyway, though? You need to tie it to billing, etc.) And if that…

An Apple account isn't particularly useful for messaging without an Apple device to message people with.

Re: Show HN: Beeper Mini – iMessage client for Android

#636

Post by fragmede »

vbezhenar wrote: post #628
chatmasta wrote: post #482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the finer legal points matter too much. If Apple wants to sue them, they'll sue them, regardless of legal merit. And I suspect Beeper is betting they can make their case from a more philosophical angle, such that it's irrelevant what grounds Apple cites when suing them. Beeper will fight it either way. I'm an Apple user who has no need for this app. But I really appreciate that Beeper has the balls to r…

Reverse-engineering and documenting protocol is OK. Implementing protocol according to the documentation is OK. Copying and modifying binary with proprietary license is not OK.

How do you run the binary if that's not OK? In order to install it, The binary gets copied from the installer (dmg/zip/app store/CD install media), and then to run it, it gets copied from your hard drive to RAM, so that's clearly okay in some circumstances. Furthermore, once it's on my hard drive, I can copy it over and over again in random places on my hard drive for funsies and the operating system will gladly cooperate. Once it's on my drive, I can go in with a hex editor and randomly change bytes for funsies. It's on my hard drive. Am I then not allowed to delete the program from my system? If I use shred to delete it, which will set the bytes in the file to zero, or format the hard drive, am I breaking the law?

Re: Show HN: Beeper Mini – iMessage client for Android

#637

Post by wslh »

smashah wrote: post #632
wslh wrote: post #622

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know, your question is very interesting: no, we didn't. Anecdote: we reverse engineered several Microsoft products and before Microsoft Windows 7 launch we were contacted by Microsoft QA and they offered us support to check if our software was compatible with it! BTW, our software was installed in millions of computers around the globe. For example, Trend Micro used our software for supporting their antivirus in…

I agree. After receiving a C&D from Meta for my OSS project (along with some other maintainers from some other projects) I strongly believe adversarial interop is a basic digital right that is required to fulfil the broken or revoked promises of web 2.0 If you know anybody that can help please let me know because I want to get back to maintaining the project.

Did you contact specific organizations such as FSF, EFF, etc and/or specialized lawyers? There were well known people defending itself or being plaintiffs. For example, https://cr.yp.to/export.html

Re: Show HN: Beeper Mini – iMessage client for Android

#638

Post by goosedragons »

collegeburner wrote: post #542
rezonant wrote: post #512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well messaging for one thing... Some others: - Find my device features including Bluetooth ping networking (airtags, Tile, Android's upcoming network) - Airdrop/Nearby Share - Bluetooth LE proximity pairing (at least I doubt this works when pairing cross ecosystem) - Carplay/Android Auto - Airplay/Google Cast

okay but this "interoperability" is legitimately hard without degrading the user experience because apple's unique level of control allows it to produce a superior product with more consistency. airdrop is best-in-class; open-source solutions like wi-fi direct are dumpsterfires with trash UX. LE proximity pairing is, i believe, a custom chip apple put in airpods (h1 chip) because bluetooth is stuck in 2005 and still…

Have you used Nearby Share on Android? It's IME just as good Airdrop, the only real issue is that it's not baked into Windows PCs like Airdrop is with Macs (confusingly MS has their own thing called Nearby Share for Windows devices). I've actually had less issues with Nearby Share, my iPhone stopped sharing to my mini after a few months but could talk to everything else. Android solved BT pairing in a superior way years before with NFC pairing. Touch two things and paired. I could get my airpods to pop up on my iPhone 1/10 times. Finnicky, overhyped crap IMO. Only reason NFC pairing didn't catch on is Apple holding the NFC chip hostage for the sole use of Apple Pay.

Re: Show HN: Beeper Mini – iMessage client for Android

#639

Post by fragmede »

dkarp wrote: post #624
lobochrome wrote: post #621

In principle - it's cool - but I already dread the increased iMessage spam that this will surely bring. WhatsApp is already almost useless with Notifications turned on for me. Maybe this is specific to Japanese phone numbers, but iMessage was always the safe spot where no fishing/scams happened. My mother actually got scammed out of ~2000 USD on WhatsApp. I think I hope Apple kills this fast.

I get spam messages on iMessage and never on WhatsApp, weird

I mistakenly gave my number to a bot on Tinder, and now I get random texts on WhatsApp all the time, consisting of a highly photoshopped photo of a woman and some short intro.

Re: Show HN: Beeper Mini – iMessage client for Android

#640

Post by lxgr »

sounds wrote: post #519
ttul wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Apple does start enforcing signed attestations, they will say that it's to reduce abuse. I have no doubt (being in the anti-abuse world) that spammers and phishing gangs will immediately begin using Beeper to spam iMessage users because this allows them to avoid buying an iOS device. With end-to-end encryption, Apple may also decide to roll out privacy-protecting client-side spam and phishing detection, which woul…

The phone number registration https://blog.beeper.com/i/139416474/sending-and-receiving-me... will make it possible to enforce legal action against malicious and spammy messages. Note that iPhones already receive SMS spam and fraud just like every other phone. However, you are correct that the blue bubble is no longer a guarantee that the bad actor is using an iPhone.

> The phone number registration https://blog.beeper.com/i/139416474/sending-and-receiving-me... will make it possible to enforce legal action against malicious and spammy messages

Like the legal action that is currently protecting us from robocalls?

I don’t know if iMessage registration requires bidirectional SMS verification, though. If it does, that would be significantly harder to spoof than just caller IDs.

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