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The Norway Model: How the Scandinavian country became a literary powerhouse

thedial.world

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Re: The Norway Model: How the Scandinavian country became a literary powerhouse

#111
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> BTW, US per-capita healthcare cost is much, much higher than Norway's, and US life expectancy is much lower. But that's the issue -- it's not a matter of allocating the money. The US is already spending it. The question is, how do you make it more cost efficient? "Just do what Norway does" doesn't solve anything for two reasons. The first is that it doesn't tell you if that's the right answer, only that what Norway…

I think the rest of the developed world would cheer on if the US just copied any of the dozens of other models for universal healthcare that produce better outcomes cheaper than the current US system. What we find shocking is that the US appears uniquely unable to fix these things among developed countries despite the vast wealth and resources. There's a level of political dysfunction that is really hard to watch, bu…

> I think the rest of the developed world would cheer on if the US just copied any of the dozens of other models for universal healthcare that produce better outcomes cheaper than the current US system.

"Just pick one" isn't actually a method of choosing when different people disagree on what should be done. People don't even agree that "universal healthcare" is the right target, rather than e.g. a market-based system with actual price transparency that would introduce competition for non-emergency care.

This is also ignoring many of the factors that make the US system so expensive. For example, the AMA has lobbied for regulations that require doctors to do a lot of things that could reasonably be done by nurses. This has been exacerbating an existing doctor shortage, so then doctors get paid more (raising healthcare costs) while impairing outcomes (there aren't enough doctors to provide a high standard of care). This is a regulatory problem created by a powerful lobby.

It's things like that which in the aggregate cause the US system to be what it is, but you can't fix them by copying some different part of the system from another country. You have to fix that problem in particular regardless of what else you do, but fixing it is the thing strongly opposed by the lobbyists.

> To give one example that I personally find shocking: That Medicare has restrictions on the extent of its ability to negotiate drug prices. I get your point that this is in part due to entrenched interests as seen with the attacks on the recent attempt to fix this issue by using powers under the Inflation Reduction Act, but that even chipping away on things like that is proving as hard as it is, is bizarre seen from the outside and the new ability to negotiate prices is still ridiculously limited.

You have to understand the context for things like this. Nobody is talking about negotiating the price of aspirin, which is a cheap commodity regardless of who you get it from.

The issue is drugs under patent.

The way the patent system is supposed to work is that if you invent something you can patent it and then charge the monopoly price for a limited time in order to recover your R&D. The monopoly price is based on the value of the invention. You can patent some dreck and try to charge a million dollars for it and nobody will buy it from you. But if you cure some fatal disease, the value of the cure is very high, which allows you to recover the cost of developing the cure, which could also be very high.

This is obviously not going to be efficient when the drug is being paid for by insurance or Medicare. If the drug company patents something which is only marginally better than the generic, anyone paying out of pocket would just choose the generic and save a lot of money. But if the doctor prescribes the patented one, the insurance is now expected to cover it and by law only the patent holder can make it, so they can charge high prices even though the person choosing which drug to take isn't the person paying the bill anymore.

This is dumb but it's not completely crazy. Sometimes drug companies get away with charging a lot because they patented "existing drug, but with Tylenol" and then convinced doctors to prescribe it. But it also means they can recover their costs for actual life-saving drug research. It's not serving its purpose efficiently but it's still doing something of importance.

So now you want Medicare to "negotiate" these prices. Basically what you're saying is that you want to reduce the intentionally-created subsidy for drug research, or shift more of its cost from Medicare to private insurance and the uninsured. Which is bad policy, but is favored by people who want Medicare's numbers to look better.

What you really want to do here is one of two things. Option one, give up on the model of patenting drugs and then having insurance cover the cost and instead just publicly subsidize drug research and immediately put the drugs into the public domain. Option two, make the patent system work as intended by exposing some of the cost to the patient, e.g. by having a 10% copay for prescription drugs. Patients would then avoid drugs which are extremely overpriced relative to their benefit and you wouldn't have Medicare paying high prices for "existing drug, but with Tylenol" anymore.

Re: The Norway Model: How the Scandinavian country became a literary powerhouse

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This feels like after the fact reasoning. In an alternate timeline where Norway has no oil and is poor, I can imagine someone saying, "How could you expect them to succeed? Poor farming conditions, terrible winters, hardly any natural resources beyond fish." After all, Russia also has some awful climates, and it doesn't seem to have resulted in strong social cooperation.

It resulted in such strong social cooperation that the majority of the population (the workers) succeeded in a revolution in 1917 and then for decades drastically improved their material conditions. There are of course other factors than climate.

Debatable whether that was the workers and the extent to which material conditions improved. Certainly, the political conditions were atrocious, and there was the whole Holodomor thing that pro-Soviet narratives like to leave out. Was killing millions an improvement?

And then Russia today has very low social trust, which is less surprising when you look at them being a totalitarian dictatorship for so long.

Re: The Norway Model: How the Scandinavian country became a literary powerhouse

#113
post #30
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a common myth, but he wasn't drunk, and the deal didn't happen that day. Several meetings later with several more officials and the deal went through 2 years after that negotiation. They basically placed the line in the middle, and the norwegians got lucky.

It fits so well with the Norwegian stereotyping of Danish people, which is likely the reason why so many believe in it. It's also worth noting that Denmark also have quite a large oil industry. Another myth seems to be that Norway was a very poor nation before the discovery of oil. According to Jan Eivind Myhre[0], professor emeritus in history at the University of Oslo, this isn't true. Norway has been one of the we…

You appear to be Norwegian.

I have to ask my standard question: have you met Magnus Carlsen??

What's he like when speaking Norwegian? [I.e. is he different than his English-speaking persona?]

Re: The Norway Model: How the Scandinavian country became a literary powerhouse

#114
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My comment points out that Norway has done something amazing that other countries have not come close to doing. Look at what the US (I am American) has done with our wealth: highest healthcare expenditure per capita (50% more than #2), 47th in life expectancy, fifth-highest incarceration rate. What is served by reflexively trying to diminish Norway's accomplishments with a "BUT Singapore is more impressive"? Why not…

>Why not instead try to learn from Norway? Singapore as opposed to Norway doesn't have a socialist dominated political system. That means more freedom.

> Singapore ... means more freedom

This is obviously a delusional take that requires ignoring reality. They quite literally don't have freedom of speech or freedom of assembly at the constitutional level, are run by what is effectively a dictatorship of varying degrees of benevolence and consistently rank in the lower end of indices of political freedom and human rights.

Re: The Norway Model: How the Scandinavian country became a literary powerhouse

#115
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If that was the case you'd see the same outcomes from Sweden, but you don't. Care to expand on that? I quite literally have no idea what you're talking about. From my POV both Sweden and Denmark provide broadly similar quality of life and wealth of opportunities to their citizens.

Nordic countries provide opportunities only if you dislike work. The more you work, the more money you earn, the more of it the state takes from you to give to those who don't care to work.

This in no way addresses the GP's point regarding differences between the Nordics. Seems like you're just desperately looking for any possible excuse to interject your political views no matter how left field the context.

Re: The Norway Model: How the Scandinavian country became a literary powerhouse

#117
post #113
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It fits so well with the Norwegian stereotyping of Danish people, which is likely the reason why so many believe in it. It's also worth noting that Denmark also have quite a large oil industry. Another myth seems to be that Norway was a very poor nation before the discovery of oil. According to Jan Eivind Myhre[0], professor emeritus in history at the University of Oslo, this isn't true. Norway has been one of the we…

You appear to be Norwegian. I have to ask my standard question: have you met Magnus Carlsen?? What's he like when speaking Norwegian? [I.e. is he different than his English-speaking persona?]

Ha! The closest I've been to meeting Magnus Carlsen is that one time we both happened to be standing next to each other at the urinals. He adheres to normal urinal etiquette, if that's anything to go by.

Re: The Norway Model: How the Scandinavian country became a literary powerhouse

#118
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the rest of the developed world would cheer on if the US just copied any of the dozens of other models for universal healthcare that produce better outcomes cheaper than the current US system. What we find shocking is that the US appears uniquely unable to fix these things among developed countries despite the vast wealth and resources. There's a level of political dysfunction that is really hard to watch, bu…

> I think the rest of the developed world would cheer on if the US just copied any of the dozens of other models for universal healthcare that produce better outcomes cheaper than the current US system. "Just pick one" isn't actually a method of choosing when different people disagree on what should be done. People don't even agree that "universal healthcare" is the right target, rather than e.g. a market-based syste…

> "Just pick one" isn't actually a method of choosing when different people disagree on what should be done. People don't even agree that "universal healthcare" is the right target, rather than e.g. a market-based system with actual price transparency that would introduce competition for non-emergency care. > > This is also ignoring many of the factors that make the US system so expensive. For example, the AMA has lobbied for regulations that require doctors to do a lot of things that could reasonably be done by nurses. This has been exacerbating an existing doctor shortage, so then doctors get paid more (raising healthcare costs) while impairing outcomes (there aren't enough doctors to provide a high standard of care). This is a regulatory problem created by a powerful lobby. > > It's things like that which in the aggregate cause the US system to be what it is, but you can't fix them by copying some different part of the system from another country. You have to fix that problem in particular regardless of what else you do, but fixing it is the thing strongly opposed by the lobbyists.

The point is that pretty much every other developed country and a lot of developing countries have managed to figure this out, the first over 130 years ago, and they've all had to figure out how to get agreement, overcome the objections to having it at all, overcome lobbyists, overcome medical associations wanting to keep tight control, and so on. Not one thing of this is new.

This US exceptionalism is a bigger part of the problem than each and every one of these objections. You're just not that special other than in believing you're that special and stubbornly refusing to learn from what has worked.

> You have to understand the context for things like this. Nobody is talking about negotiating the price of aspirin, which is a cheap commodity regardless of who you get it from. > > The issue is drugs under patent.

This is not news. Every other country also has to deal with it. However, unlike the US, they have chosen to deal with it by negotiating best possible prices, usually by putting together portfolios of different drugs to negotiate over, and then deal with any perceived need to subsidise R&D into drugs that pharma companies aren't doing enough to address. The US is near unique in effectively letting pharma companies write public healthcare policy by making it a game of how to extract the most money from taxpayers.

It is, however, amazing how quickly the American belief in the free market collapses when someone suggests that Medicare should just act as one more actor in a market where the are already hundreds of other buyers negotiating the best possible prices.

> So now you want Medicare to "negotiate" these prices. Basically what you're saying is that you want to reduce the intentionally-created subsidy for drug research, or shift more of its cost from Medicare to private insurance and the uninsured. Which is bad policy, but is favored by people who want Medicare's numbers to look better.

The outcome is that you're misrepresenting the cost of providing care per patient by making the per-patient cost appear ridiculous when a huge bulk of it is an R&D subsidy that the entire world benefits from, that you're choosing to carry even for the half of the top 10 pharma companies that aren't even American, and that does not need to increase if the number of patients increase. If you want to pay that subsidy that's awesome, but when you're lumping it into Medicare it becomes an argument for not extending cover to more people because it artificially inflates the per-patient marginal cost of providing care.

> What you really want to do here is one of two things. Option one, give up on the model of patenting drugs and then having insurance cover the cost and instead just publicly subsidize drug research and immediately put the drugs into the public domain. Option two, make the patent system work as intended by exposing some of the cost to the patient, e.g. by having a 10% copay for prescription drugs. Patients would then avoid drugs which are extremely overpriced relative to their benefit and you wouldn't have Medicare paying high prices for "existing drug, but with Tylenol" anymore.

Or you can do what pretty much the rest of the developed world does: Publicly subsidise R&D (which the US also does - NIH grants for FY2023 are around $50bn) and negotiate best possible prices, so that you avoid creating perverse incentives to chase drugs to optimise the expected ratio of R&D expenses relative to ability to maximise costs to patients.

This willingness to actively defend a system that demonstrably is providing you substandard outcomes at the highest cost in the world is also fairly unique to American conditions.

Re: The Norway Model: How the Scandinavian country became a literary powerhouse

#119
post #59
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that much of Europe?

If we compare with the northern latitudes, which my comment was a response to: For Norway / Sweden / Finland, no not really. Serfdom did not exist in a similar form after medieval times, and neither did autocracy from late 18th / early 19th century onwards. Finland, even though part of Russia for much of this time, did not have serfdom.

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