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Study of ancient British oral microbiomes reveals shift following Black Death

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Re: Study of ancient British oral microbiomes reveals shift following Black Death

#21

Post by seszett »

stareatgoats wrote: post #6
basisword wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think you’re entitled to dig up peoples bodies and conduct research on indigenous people? That kind of entitlement is the cause of everything bad in the tech industry.

Except we're not talking about "indigenous people". The study wants to investigate the teeth of pre-industrial Europeans, the polar opposite of indigenous people in that slightly vague dichotomy.

> pre-industrial Europeans, the polar opposite of indigenous people

I don't understand what you mean? Why would pre-industrial Europeans not be indigenous? Because they (in Britain) partly displaced the previous Celtic inhabitants (who themselves had likely displaced others before them)?

Re: Study of ancient British oral microbiomes reveals shift following Black Death

#22

Post by dijit »

basisword wrote: post #4
leoedin wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That part jumped out at me. Why on earth do they need the permission of the descendents of someone who lived 500+ years ago? And how on earth are they even going to get it? Surely even if one guy says it's ok (and you can prove he's descended from a body you found), what happens if another person says no? It's obviously nonsense - so why claim it? The part about indiginous research is kind of mad as well - "This rese…

Why do you think you’re entitled to dig up peoples bodies and conduct research on indigenous people? That kind of entitlement is the cause of everything bad in the tech industry.

There's a limit, surely. After 3 generations of nobody having known you living: surely your body must have reverted to general property.

I don't want to start a holy war, I understand sentimentality. But if you dug up my great grandfathers great grandfather then honestly I have absolutely no connection to the man and his body could be anywhere on earth. It's not my property and despite sharing some of my genes it's part of the earth at that point.

What once was a man merely returned to the atoms and microbes of the planet that bore it.

Re: Study of ancient British oral microbiomes reveals shift following Black Death

#23

Post by qwytw »

defrost wrote: post #11
draugadrotten wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm indigenous European When Netflix depicts indigenous European as POC, is that Blackface or Historical Accuracy or both? I am confused.

Both. The bulk of modern Europe was covered in thick glacial ice, when it receded the "first Europeans" walked in from the south. A number got a lot paler after many generations in the more northern parts, others less pale, and those near the Mediterranean were neither ghost white nor midnight black. Now throw in a steady low rate of long distance trade - traders travelled, as did those enslaved and traded. The Roman…

> A number got a lot paler after many generations in the more northern parts, others less pale, and those near the Mediterranean were neither ghost white nor midnight black.

IIRC the current theory is that genes responsible for white skin in Europe were initially introduced by farmers migrating from Anatolia and the middle east (white skin appearings somewhere there or closer to the Caucasus). They almost entirely replaced the indigenous much darker skin hunter gatherers in many areas of Europe,

> one fort was manned by Africans.

North Africans. Who were most likely more "white" back then than now (Trans-Saharan slave trade which transported millions of people from Sub-Saharan Arica wasn't a thing back then).

Re: Study of ancient British oral microbiomes reveals shift following Black Death

#24

Post by qwytw »

happymellon wrote: post #13
leoedin wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These bodies are British.

Being studied by Americans and Australians. If it is bad for the British to take human remains from other countries, then we should apply the same logic to exporting British human remains.

> Being studied by Americans and Australians.

And therefore are also very likely to be descendants of those people to some (possibly non insignificant extent) extent.

Re: Study of ancient British oral microbiomes reveals shift following Black Death

#25

Post by eigenket »

leoedin wrote: post #3
stareatgoats wrote: post #2

Studying the calcified plaque in the teeth of ancient populations can be a better proxy for understanding the oral microbiomes in pre-industrialized societies than using present day indigenous societies practicing subsistence lifestyle. Using this method this study might just prove, or at least insinuate, that the survivors of the Second Plague Pandemic that earned higher incomes and could afford higher-calorie foods…

That part jumped out at me. Why on earth do they need the permission of the descendents of someone who lived 500+ years ago? And how on earth are they even going to get it? Surely even if one guy says it's ok (and you can prove he's descended from a body you found), what happens if another person says no? It's obviously nonsense - so why claim it? The part about indiginous research is kind of mad as well - "This rese…

This research is being done by US and Australian universities on remains from the UK. If you turn up in the UK and try to dig up random skeletons and send them to the US or Australia without the correct permissions, you're gonna get arrested. Probably very quickly, probably at the first grave yard you visit.

You get the permission from whoever owns the land the graves are in, as well as the UK government.

Re: Study of ancient British oral microbiomes reveals shift following Black Death

#26

Post by eigenket »

KaiserPro wrote: post #18
mschuster91 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why on earth do they need the permission of the descendents of someone who lived 500+ years ago? Because there has been a rich history of Western (colonial) powers looting graves or remembrances of the dead (e.g. shrunken heads) in the past, and there are numerous legal issues being fought to this day about repatriation of human remains back to their home countries. There is no need to pile more case on the already…

> there has been a rich history of Western (colonial) powers looting graves or remembrances of the dead There is a rich history of everyone looting graves. This isn't a colonial vs other thing here. Sacking of places is common and still happens (see syria, afganistan & the sudans. ) We just happen to know about the stuff the western people did because they documented it and put it on display. (unlike the romans, pers…

That license is not relevant here, thats for relatively recent bodies where you want to dig them up to move them to a different grave or cremate them or something.

The most relevant thing here is that the remains are being taken outside the UK (the study is being done by US and Australian universities) so you need some permission to export them.

Re: Study of ancient British oral microbiomes reveals shift following Black Death

#27

Post by eigenket »

qwytw wrote: post #24
happymellon wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being studied by Americans and Australians. If it is bad for the British to take human remains from other countries, then we should apply the same logic to exporting British human remains.

> Being studied by Americans and Australians. And therefore are also very likely to be descendants of those people to some (possibly non insignificant extent) extent.

> And therefore are also very likely to be descendants of those people to some (possibly non insignificant extent) extent.

We (the UK) don't care. If you try to export human remains from the UK to another country (the study is being done by US and Australian universities), without the correct permissions you're going to have a bad time.

Re: Study of ancient British oral microbiomes reveals shift following Black Death

#29

Post by demondemidi »

stareatgoats wrote: post #2

Studying the calcified plaque in the teeth of ancient populations can be a better proxy for understanding the oral microbiomes in pre-industrialized societies than using present day indigenous societies practicing subsistence lifestyle. Using this method this study might just prove, or at least insinuate, that the survivors of the Second Plague Pandemic that earned higher incomes and could afford higher-calorie foods…

What do you mean by “so much irrelevant signaling”? And why do you focus on the non science-y bits of a science article? Seems irrelevant, no?

Re: Study of ancient British oral microbiomes reveals shift following Black Death

#30

Post by sokoloff »

happymellon wrote: post #14
stareatgoats wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except we're not talking about "indigenous people". The study wants to investigate the teeth of pre-industrial Europeans, the polar opposite of indigenous people in that slightly vague dichotomy.

You appear to be missing the part where these are not British scientists researching British remains in Britain. Yes, the Americans and Australians should ask before taking British remains from Britain away for research in their labs. I don't see where the research is conducted but there isn't any mention of collaboration with the UK so this would involve exporting the remains.

Consistent with the precedent the British established with all of those Egyptian mummies?

I mean, I agree they need permission, but it’s at least a little ironic…

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