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Study of ancient British oral microbiomes reveals shift following Black Death

psu.edu

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Re: Study of ancient British oral microbiomes reveals shift following Black Death

#11

Post by defrost »

draugadrotten wrote: post #10
bboygravity wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, tone it down a little. I'm indigenous European, you might be talking about my great great great great great great grandparents here. /s

> I'm indigenous European When Netflix depicts indigenous European as POC, is that Blackface or Historical Accuracy or both? I am confused.

Both.

The bulk of modern Europe was covered in thick glacial ice, when it receded the "first Europeans" walked in from the south.

A number got a lot paler after many generations in the more northern parts, others less pale, and those near the Mediterranean were neither ghost white nor midnight black.

Now throw in a steady low rate of long distance trade - traders travelled, as did those enslaved and traded.

The Roman settlements in England were mainly established by people not from modern Italy, they came from across a broad part of the full Roman Empire, one fort was manned by Africans.

So - legitimately mostly white skinned people with a small percentage of every other shade. Depending very much which bit of "Europe" you're looking at.

Re: Study of ancient British oral microbiomes reveals shift following Black Death

#12

Post by im3w1l »

bboygravity wrote: post #9
stareatgoats wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except we're not talking about "indigenous people". The study wants to investigate the teeth of pre-industrial Europeans, the polar opposite of indigenous people in that slightly vague dichotomy.

Hey, tone it down a little. I'm indigenous European, you might be talking about my great great great great great great grandparents here. /s

The assumption is that unlike minorities, indigenous Europeans are represented by their governments. As Europe becomes more diverse, that may become less true and it will be necessary to ask them directly.

Re: Study of ancient British oral microbiomes reveals shift following Black Death

#13

Post by happymellon »

leoedin wrote: post #8
mschuster91 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why on earth do they need the permission of the descendents of someone who lived 500+ years ago? Because there has been a rich history of Western (colonial) powers looting graves or remembrances of the dead (e.g. shrunken heads) in the past, and there are numerous legal issues being fought to this day about repatriation of human remains back to their home countries. There is no need to pile more case on the already…

These bodies are British.

Being studied by Americans and Australians.

If it is bad for the British to take human remains from other countries, then we should apply the same logic to exporting British human remains.

Re: Study of ancient British oral microbiomes reveals shift following Black Death

#14

Post by happymellon »

stareatgoats wrote: post #6
basisword wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think you’re entitled to dig up peoples bodies and conduct research on indigenous people? That kind of entitlement is the cause of everything bad in the tech industry.

Except we're not talking about "indigenous people". The study wants to investigate the teeth of pre-industrial Europeans, the polar opposite of indigenous people in that slightly vague dichotomy.

You appear to be missing the part where these are not British scientists researching British remains in Britain.

Yes, the Americans and Australians should ask before taking British remains from Britain away for research in their labs. I don't see where the research is conducted but there isn't any mention of collaboration with the UK so this would involve exporting the remains.

Re: Study of ancient British oral microbiomes reveals shift following Black Death

#15

Post by gumby »

Well that was not what I had expected!

I assumed from the title that the oral bacteria would reveal some preferential defense or resistance to yersinia pestis, but instead it was entirely due to the post-epidemic economies of the survivors.

This is more like the situation of beriberi crippling the imperial Japanese navy in the 1880s

Re: Study of ancient British oral microbiomes reveals shift following Black Death

#16

Post by informatimago »

leoedin wrote: post #3
stareatgoats wrote: post #2

Studying the calcified plaque in the teeth of ancient populations can be a better proxy for understanding the oral microbiomes in pre-industrialized societies than using present day indigenous societies practicing subsistence lifestyle. Using this method this study might just prove, or at least insinuate, that the survivors of the Second Plague Pandemic that earned higher incomes and could afford higher-calorie foods…

That part jumped out at me. Why on earth do they need the permission of the descendents of someone who lived 500+ years ago? And how on earth are they even going to get it? Surely even if one guy says it's ok (and you can prove he's descended from a body you found), what happens if another person says no? It's obviously nonsense - so why claim it? The part about indiginous research is kind of mad as well - "This rese…

Indeed. 500 years is about 16 generations, so any ancestor of that age may have 65536 or even more descendents. You'd need to locate them and ask them all permission. How does it work, is it majority vote? Unanimous vote?

All European people have a unique male ancestor 300 generations away. If you locate remains of that age, do you have to ask nobody or everybody? (Depending on whether it's the male ancestor of all of us, or some other male whose last descendent died long ago?)

Re: Study of ancient British oral microbiomes reveals shift following Black Death

#18

Post by KaiserPro »

mschuster91 wrote: post #5
leoedin wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That part jumped out at me. Why on earth do they need the permission of the descendents of someone who lived 500+ years ago? And how on earth are they even going to get it? Surely even if one guy says it's ok (and you can prove he's descended from a body you found), what happens if another person says no? It's obviously nonsense - so why claim it? The part about indiginous research is kind of mad as well - "This rese…

> Why on earth do they need the permission of the descendents of someone who lived 500+ years ago? Because there has been a rich history of Western (colonial) powers looting graves or remembrances of the dead (e.g. shrunken heads) in the past, and there are numerous legal issues being fought to this day about repatriation of human remains back to their home countries. There is no need to pile more case on the already…

> there has been a rich history of Western (colonial) powers looting graves or remembrances of the dead

There is a rich history of everyone looting graves. This isn't a colonial vs other thing here. Sacking of places is common and still happens (see syria, afganistan & the sudans. ) We just happen to know about the stuff the western people did because they documented it and put it on display. (unlike the romans, persians, greeks, byzantines, ottermans, et al. didn't loose it to the next empire, yet.)

There used to be a bunch of TV shows where they'd routinely dig up bones and put them on shelves in storage.

Applying to exhume a body isn't that difficult in the UK either: https://www.gov.uk/apply-for-an-exhumation-licence

Re: Study of ancient British oral microbiomes reveals shift following Black Death

#19

Post by KaiserPro »

leoedin wrote: post #3
stareatgoats wrote: post #2

Studying the calcified plaque in the teeth of ancient populations can be a better proxy for understanding the oral microbiomes in pre-industrialized societies than using present day indigenous societies practicing subsistence lifestyle. Using this method this study might just prove, or at least insinuate, that the survivors of the Second Plague Pandemic that earned higher incomes and could afford higher-calorie foods…

That part jumped out at me. Why on earth do they need the permission of the descendents of someone who lived 500+ years ago? And how on earth are they even going to get it? Surely even if one guy says it's ok (and you can prove he's descended from a body you found), what happens if another person says no? It's obviously nonsense - so why claim it? The part about indiginous research is kind of mad as well - "This rese…

https://www.gov.uk/apply-for-an-exhumation-licence I suspect its part of the license to exhume the bodies. (Assuming that they haven't already been removed from the ground)

Re: Study of ancient British oral microbiomes reveals shift following Black Death

#20

Post by spacecadet »

stareatgoats wrote: post #2

Studying the calcified plaque in the teeth of ancient populations can be a better proxy for understanding the oral microbiomes in pre-industrialized societies than using present day indigenous societies practicing subsistence lifestyle. Using this method this study might just prove, or at least insinuate, that the survivors of the Second Plague Pandemic that earned higher incomes and could afford higher-calorie foods…

for a large number of university staff and graduates, signaling is all they can produce...
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