Paper vs. devices: Brain activation differences during memory retrieval (2021) • Hacker News Board

Re: Paper vs. devices: Brain activation differences during memory retrieval (2021)

#111

Post by ClimaxGravely » Tue, Dec 05, 2023, 6:56 AM UTC

HSO wrote: post #42

NB: this is a Japanese study. The participants wrote their notes in Japanese. If you write on paper, you need to write out each character by hand. In contrast, if you write on a tablet or other device, the input system will sort of "autocomplete" for you. Therefore, more cognitive effort is required to write on paper than on device. It is fairly accepted that greater cognitive effort (either to encode or to retrieve)…

It autocompletes kanji? That's impressive. At first I thought that might be a very difficult thing to do but I just talked to some friends who are Japanese natives and they said it's easier to solve the issue of similar kanji by using context.

Neat!

Re: Paper vs. devices: Brain activation differences during memory retrieval (2021)

#112

Post by ClimaxGravely » Tue, Dec 05, 2023, 6:59 AM UTC

getoj wrote: post #103

gwervc wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you write on paper, you need to write out each character by hand. Exactly like English or French. You also need to remember the correct sequence of letters (see my remark below). > In contrast, if you write on a tablet or other device, the input system will sort of "autocomplete" for you. Exactly like English or French. I didn't write half of the letters used to type this comment. I think you are searching for J…

Character amnesia is a unique phenomenon to hanzi/kanji and is absolutely incomparable to English and French orthography. Native Chinese and Japanese speakers learn characters largely through muscle memory, which deteriorates rapidly if you don’t regularly write by hand. Many university-educated adults are unable to write a supermaket shopping list without hesitation.[1] Conversely, in English I learn difficult spell…

I've been studying Japanese for years and while SRS reading methods help to some degree, writing is the only thing that's really helped me lock in Kanji. Especially at the intermediate level where kanji not only look similar but are pronounced the same.

SRS : Spaced repetition system. Anki is a good example of that.

Re: Paper vs. devices: Brain activation differences during memory retrieval (2021)

#113

Post by ClimaxGravely » Tue, Dec 05, 2023, 7:15 AM UTC

keiferski wrote: post #53

tgv wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One hour isn't really short-term memory, at least not in the usual sense, and short-term memory is definitely needed to form long-term memories. Spaced repetition is an entirely different dimension. It doesn't fit between the three mentioned modes. You don't get spaced repetition when e.g. attending class or reading a chapter. Instead, you make notes. That's what this study is for, and anything else is a distraction.

My point was more that if you’re trying to decide which method is better for remembering something (handwriting vs. digital), the introduction of a spaced repetition system (either software like Anki or a Leitner box for handwritten notes) will outcompete either one that is used alone. In other words, if your goal is to go fast: a bicycle will outcompete a tricycle. But adding a motor to either will be an order of ma…

Isn't that fairly obvious? You need to repeat the work for this kind of stuff.

I can say that SRS reading pales in comparison to SRS writing when it comes to learning Japanese.

Re: Paper vs. devices: Brain activation differences during memory retrieval (2021)

#114

Post by ClimaxGravely » Tue, Dec 05, 2023, 7:44 AM UTC

keiferski wrote: post #36

AngaraliTurk wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just a very small nitpick, but "system" is redundant when you say SRS, as it would be like saying Spaced Repetition System system.

SRS = spaced repetition software.

Good to know but these days if you try to google it that's not the result unfortunately.

Re: Paper vs. devices: Brain activation differences during memory retrieval (2021)

#115

Post by geniium » Tue, Dec 05, 2023, 7:45 AM UTC

intrepidlemon wrote: post #52

geniium wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only thing I miss is the ability to spread my papers in front of me to think with a global view and mix them and play with them with ease. This is something I never found in any digital product where paper is unbeatable.

This could be achieved with VR although I don’t know of anything product doing this now.

It would be amazing to have a VR app that allows you to write virtually anywhere in the space and be able to manipulate virtual papers and organize them around ourselves. It's actually a good product idea.

With the evolution of the hand tracking mechanism that could probably be done today.

The resolution of the screens doesn't scare me, the evolution since the first headset from Meta for example has been pretty amazing and the refresh rate as well.

Re: Paper vs. devices: Brain activation differences during memory retrieval (2021)

#116

Post by geniium » Tue, Dec 05, 2023, 7:46 AM UTC

ClimaxGravely wrote: post #109

intrepidlemon wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This could be achieved with VR although I don’t know of anything product doing this now.

But then you have to wear a VR headset.

which we might all be wearing in a few decades or have it integrated in our eyes.

Re: Paper vs. devices: Brain activation differences during memory retrieval (2021)

#117

Post by eternityforest » Tue, Dec 05, 2023, 8:34 AM UTC

bayindirh wrote: post #50

makeitdouble wrote: post #49

One side issue on these studies is there's currently no control group who spent their life solely on electronic devices. Even as tablets are distributed in school from the primary cycle, note taking and exams are all done on paper. This is not a value judgment on wether it's good or bad, just that any further study will be on subjects that spent their formative years writing on paper, they better learn to be good at…

> One side issue on these studies is there's currently no control group who spent their life solely on electronic devices. I’m a statistic of one, but I started my digital mobile life on PalmOS/Handspring devices. I still prefer pen and paper for deep-thinking and future planning, despite having them reflected in a digital medium later. Tactility of paper, plus not being subject to a glowing screen apparently changes…

I think everyone kind of feels like paper has some benefit, but it's mostly like excercise.

Short term it's a hassle, and whatever you're doing will take time to see results, and... the phone is right there, frictionless, already in your hand.

Plus, to find motivation to use pen and paper, you have to have a project, which isn't just work(That is often inherently digital) which you care about enough to use high-effort methods.

I love the idea of using pen and paper.... but... pen and paper are more objects to manage that can be lost and add to the clutter which is currently one of the bigger sources of stress in my life.

Re: Paper vs. devices: Brain activation differences during memory retrieval (2021)

#118

Post by bayindirh » Tue, Dec 05, 2023, 8:47 AM UTC

eternityforest wrote: post #117

bayindirh wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One side issue on these studies is there's currently no control group who spent their life solely on electronic devices. I’m a statistic of one, but I started my digital mobile life on PalmOS/Handspring devices. I still prefer pen and paper for deep-thinking and future planning, despite having them reflected in a digital medium later. Tactility of paper, plus not being subject to a glowing screen apparently changes…

I think everyone kind of feels like paper has some benefit, but it's mostly like excercise. Short term it's a hassle, and whatever you're doing will take time to see results, and... the phone is right there, frictionless, already in your hand. Plus, to find motivation to use pen and paper, you have to have a project, which isn't just work(That is often inherently digital) which you care about enough to use high-effor…

While to each is their own, I don't think so.

I have spent and still spend a lot of time on digital document and task management systems. I have considerable note and project troves in Evernote and Pagico. In reality, long term memory provided by Pagico is a great complement to pen and paper workflow of me, because I bake longer term plans into Pagico, and use that tool everyday, too.

The phone is not frictionless, because at the end tap/click depth is much more when using a digital device when compared to pen and paper. I always put stalls into my mind flow, because you need to at least add some keyboard shortcuts or taps while streaming your knowledge to something digital. Paper doesn't have that kind of friction. Just dump it down. Markdown provides some good middle ground, but it's not completely intrerrupt-free either.

A small A5 or 17x24cm notebook doesn't take a place in your daily backpack, neither a good, run of the mill flight-safe roller.

Digital organization has its perks and uses which can't be and shouldn't be ignored when the data volume one manages passes a certain threshold, but pen and paper is irreplaceable in my mind. Because the uninterrupted workflow and the pacing it provides works as a great regulatory aid for me. It doesn't run out of battery, has much faster random access, do not tax my eyes much, and last but not the least, prevents carpal tunnel.

Re: Paper vs. devices: Brain activation differences during memory retrieval (2021)

#119

Post by eternityforest » Tue, Dec 05, 2023, 9:56 AM UTC

bayindirh wrote: post #118

eternityforest wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think everyone kind of feels like paper has some benefit, but it's mostly like excercise. Short term it's a hassle, and whatever you're doing will take time to see results, and... the phone is right there, frictionless, already in your hand. Plus, to find motivation to use pen and paper, you have to have a project, which isn't just work(That is often inherently digital) which you care about enough to use high-effor…

While to each is their own, I don't think so. I have spent and still spend a lot of time on digital document and task management systems. I have considerable note and project troves in Evernote and Pagico. In reality, long term memory provided by Pagico is a great complement to pen and paper workflow of me, because I bake longer term plans into Pagico, and use that tool everyday, too. The phone is not frictionless, b…

The times when I actually bother getting up off my butt and picking up a pen, I do notice a lot of productivity.. almost entirely because you can't click away to Facebook every minute, and it doesn't show you anything that reminds me of the fact I could be scrolling dumb crap.

I spend a lot of time thinking about each individual letter and stroke to have any chance of legibility though, and was very slow even when I was practicing heavily as a teen(I heard GEDs were subconsciously scored based on penmanship, even though they're not supposed to, and wanted to give myself an advantage).

There's also a small security issue, Google can probably read Google Keep, but people I actually know can read paper if I leave it behind, so I wouldn't want to use it for any kind of private journal, unless it was something that never left the house.

It can also be lost and there's no instant sync, plus there's no reminder feature, so I wouldn't want to use it for anything critical, that's just making myself a single point of failure in my own life, even if the paper itself is reliable.

The productivity gains are noticable enough that it definitely does seem like there's real value there though, despite the extra work.

If I get stuck on a problem, I pull out my Boogie Board(Not quite paper but great for throwaway notes).

I also like to use my A5 binder notebook in meetings, especially if I'm new to a group, or it's a casual discussion that's not highly technical, almost as part of my wardrobe.

It gives transparency that I'm actually paying attention, not scrolling Hacker News, as opposed to a screen only I can see, and it doesn't break immersion if we're talking about a project that doesn't involve tech, like building something that's meant to feel old fashioned.

Re: Paper vs. devices: Brain activation differences during memory retrieval (2021)

#120

Post by gwervc » Tue, Dec 05, 2023, 3:31 PM UTC

getoj wrote: post #103

gwervc wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you write on paper, you need to write out each character by hand. Exactly like English or French. You also need to remember the correct sequence of letters (see my remark below). > In contrast, if you write on a tablet or other device, the input system will sort of "autocomplete" for you. Exactly like English or French. I didn't write half of the letters used to type this comment. I think you are searching for J…

Character amnesia is a unique phenomenon to hanzi/kanji and is absolutely incomparable to English and French orthography. Native Chinese and Japanese speakers learn characters largely through muscle memory, which deteriorates rapidly if you don’t regularly write by hand. Many university-educated adults are unable to write a supermaket shopping list without hesitation.[1] Conversely, in English I learn difficult spell…

> Don’t take my word for it

Don't worry, I have some knowledge of Japanese and Chinese (traditional) and first hand experience of the phenomenon. If you can visualize the character you can write it, and I maintain that this is not as different as people makes it than visualizing the writing form of a word for a language written with a morphophonemic script (English, French, Korean without hanja, Thai, etc.)