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Paper vs. devices: Brain activation differences during memory retrieval (2021)

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Re: Paper vs. devices: Brain activation differences during memory retrieval (2021)

#51

Post by maksimur »

FrustratedMonky wrote: post #45
maksimur wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish it was like that for me too. I waste a lot of paper because I have to strike or rewrite my notes over and over for mistakes and changes of mind, even though I do my best not to make them. I still didn't find a way to fix that, but maybe it's just how my brain works.

Think that is the key/point. Once you get frustrated at the re-writing, waste of paper. That in-itself will start to train you to think through your thoughts before writing them down. It will help slow your brain down and conceptualize things more fully first.

I've been frustrated at it since I was a kid, but no intervention seems to have had an effect on reducing the waste. If I went through with thinking through my thoughts before writing them I'd be stuck for a very long time (potentially days) at best, else I'm back to square one.

Re: Paper vs. devices: Brain activation differences during memory retrieval (2021)

#52

Post by intrepidlemon »

geniium wrote: post #46
chrisweekly wrote: post #44

One thing I love about my reMarkable tablet is that I get all the benefits of manual handwriting and sketches, enhanced by and combined with digital flexibility (copy/paste, resize, undo/redo, tags/metadata, search, retrieval, PKB integ and interop, etc).

The only thing I miss is the ability to spread my papers in front of me to think with a global view and mix them and play with them with ease. This is something I never found in any digital product where paper is unbeatable.

This could be achieved with VR although I don’t know of anything product doing this now.

Re: Paper vs. devices: Brain activation differences during memory retrieval (2021)

#53

Post by keiferski »

tgv wrote: post #28
keiferski wrote: post #12

This study appears to focus on short term memory, but for my money, long-term memory is much more significant. As such, it would have been useful to add a third option: using a SRS system like Anki. I imagine it would significantly outcompete both hand-written notes and digital tablet notes. A bit like the famous Steve Jobs example comparing a human, a condor, and a human with a bicycle. The condor (hand-writing) may…

One hour isn't really short-term memory, at least not in the usual sense, and short-term memory is definitely needed to form long-term memories. Spaced repetition is an entirely different dimension. It doesn't fit between the three mentioned modes. You don't get spaced repetition when e.g. attending class or reading a chapter. Instead, you make notes. That's what this study is for, and anything else is a distraction.

My point was more that if you’re trying to decide which method is better for remembering something (handwriting vs. digital), the introduction of a spaced repetition system (either software like Anki or a Leitner box for handwritten notes) will outcompete either one that is used alone.

In other words, if your goal is to go fast: a bicycle will outcompete a tricycle. But adding a motor to either will be an order of magnitude better. At least that’s what I think; and so I wish the study had included this.

Re: Paper vs. devices: Brain activation differences during memory retrieval (2021)

#54

Post by dmvdoug »

6stringmerc wrote: post #8

The amount of mental investment to write by hand versus type is significant. Technology assists are still rather primitive for English (you can’t argue with me on this it’s the hardest language due to amalgamations) but lazy gonna lazy. My thesis paper on file from 20 years ago already set forth a curriculum to address literary learning deficiency. Oh well. Point being is I’ve practiced the hard way and if you only k…

You will eviscerate me?! I need my viscera, good English major, please spare me.

Re: Paper vs. devices: Brain activation differences during memory retrieval (2021)

#55

Post by keiferski »

falling_myshkin wrote: post #25
keiferski wrote: post #12

This study appears to focus on short term memory, but for my money, long-term memory is much more significant. As such, it would have been useful to add a third option: using a SRS system like Anki. I imagine it would significantly outcompete both hand-written notes and digital tablet notes. A bit like the famous Steve Jobs example comparing a human, a condor, and a human with a bicycle. The condor (hand-writing) may…

I don't understand your simile. The limitations of a bicycle are infrastructure: bicycles can go a lot of places very efficiently, but rugged mountain terrain without trails (precisely the place condors thrive) would be difficult to traverse. (this is totally off topic but now i am curious about the energy efficiency of condor flight vs bicycle travel in ideal conditions) i find SRS very useful. but i personally thin…

It was just an example used by Steve Jobs to show how computers could enhance human capabilities.

Also, using a SRS in conjunction with a memory palace can solve a lot of the reference issues you’re describing.

Re: Paper vs. devices: Brain activation differences during memory retrieval (2021)

#56

Post by zone411 »

Interesting result, but I wish they hadn't used scheduled appointments as the content of the note. I don't write down scheduled appointments because I want to have them stored in my mind, quite the opposite. It would be much more interesting if they used something you want to learn and memorize. I expect the result to hold, but still.

Re: Paper vs. devices: Brain activation differences during memory retrieval (2021)

#57

Post by Probiotic6081 »

keiferski wrote: post #53
tgv wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One hour isn't really short-term memory, at least not in the usual sense, and short-term memory is definitely needed to form long-term memories. Spaced repetition is an entirely different dimension. It doesn't fit between the three mentioned modes. You don't get spaced repetition when e.g. attending class or reading a chapter. Instead, you make notes. That's what this study is for, and anything else is a distraction.

My point was more that if you’re trying to decide which method is better for remembering something (handwriting vs. digital), the introduction of a spaced repetition system (either software like Anki or a Leitner box for handwritten notes) will outcompete either one that is used alone. In other words, if your goal is to go fast: a bicycle will outcompete a tricycle. But adding a motor to either will be an order of ma…

> My point was more that if you’re trying to decide which method is better for remembering something (handwriting vs. digital), the introduction of a spaced repetition system (either software like Anki or a Leitner box for handwritten notes) will outcompete either one that is used alone.

The study in question compared three groups (pen & paper note taking, smartphone and tablet) on information retrieval and note taking duration after reading a dialogue.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point, but that systematic spaced repetition will lead to better information retrieval is kind of obvious and has a lot of literature to support it, but how is it relevant to this study?

Re: Paper vs. devices: Brain activation differences during memory retrieval (2021)

#58

Post by goda90 »

geniium wrote: post #46
chrisweekly wrote: post #44

One thing I love about my reMarkable tablet is that I get all the benefits of manual handwriting and sketches, enhanced by and combined with digital flexibility (copy/paste, resize, undo/redo, tags/metadata, search, retrieval, PKB integ and interop, etc).

The only thing I miss is the ability to spread my papers in front of me to think with a global view and mix them and play with them with ease. This is something I never found in any digital product where paper is unbeatable.

I've seen so many sci-fi concepts of smart ink on paper. Something you can leaf through like a book, but the ink can be changed electronically. I wonder if we'll ever get that.

Re: Paper vs. devices: Brain activation differences during memory retrieval (2021)

#59

Post by keiferski »

Probiotic6081 wrote: post #57
keiferski wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point was more that if you’re trying to decide which method is better for remembering something (handwriting vs. digital), the introduction of a spaced repetition system (either software like Anki or a Leitner box for handwritten notes) will outcompete either one that is used alone. In other words, if your goal is to go fast: a bicycle will outcompete a tricycle. But adding a motor to either will be an order of ma…

> My point was more that if you’re trying to decide which method is better for remembering something (handwriting vs. digital), the introduction of a spaced repetition system (either software like Anki or a Leitner box for handwritten notes) will outcompete either one that is used alone. The study in question compared three groups (pen & paper note taking, smartphone and tablet) on information retrieval and note taki…

Because the original link submission title was more about memory and writing vs. typing. And so I was commenting on the topic of memory as a whole.

Judging by the other comments, most people had the same interpretation.

Re: Paper vs. devices: Brain activation differences during memory retrieval (2021)

#60

Post by Probiotic6081 »

keiferski wrote: post #12

This study appears to focus on short term memory, but for my money, long-term memory is much more significant. As such, it would have been useful to add a third option: using a SRS system like Anki. I imagine it would significantly outcompete both hand-written notes and digital tablet notes. A bit like the famous Steve Jobs example comparing a human, a condor, and a human with a bicycle. The condor (hand-writing) may…

>This study appears to focus on short term memory, but for my money, long-term memory is much more significant. As such, it would have been useful to add a third option: using a SRS system like Anki

Then you should go tell the journal editors that this study is incomplete and didn't cover the type of memory you consider more significant, hopefully they will retract the paper

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