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Ousted propaganda scholar accuses Harvard of bowing to Meta

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Re: Ousted propaganda scholar accuses Harvard of bowing to Meta

#411

Post by doublemint2203 »

dinkleberg wrote: post #209
doublemint2203 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

imho, you're wrong: it may not be "human nature" as much as it is prisoner's dilemma. few, but some, humans are just as inherently averse to corruption as someone may be inherently prone to it. it's a matter of "if I don't take this bribe, someone else will"

That is still human nature. Not everyone will exhibit those traits, but when looking at the entirety of humanity, these traits are certainly part of our nature. And the prisoner's dilemma is a way of exploring/explaining these traits (though I expect these aren't exclusive to humans).

hmm. I suppose a sentient ant may not reach a Nash equilibrium, but the best equilibrium. Then through that lens, yeah. I can see how you see it as human nature.

Re: Ousted propaganda scholar accuses Harvard of bowing to Meta

#412

Post by ratsmack »

specialist wrote: post #367
throw4847285 wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're more like hedge funds that do some light educating on the side. Especially ones as rich as Harvard.

That's an unfair assessment. Harvard et al also launder reputations, incubate reactionary movements, serve as a finishing school for the rich and powerful, stoke credentialing (eg grade inflation), and accelerate social inequity. For starters.

Just like so many organizations within government, universities have no accountability... status quo rules.

Re: Ousted propaganda scholar accuses Harvard of bowing to Meta

#413

Post by tptacek »

drawkward wrote: post #388
tptacek wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "river to the sea" slogan is deeply poisoned and has been used by every conceivable bad actor, from west bank settlers and supporters of a "Greater Israel" to Hezbollah, and all points between. It is reasonable for people hearing that slogan to assume the worst. That doesn't mean people who use it are per se antisemitic (or per se Kahanist). But it does obligate its users to explain themselves, and when you're ex…

>It is reasonable for people hearing that slogan to assume the worst. Hard disagree. I do not think it reasonable to assume that an American college student chanting "from the river to the sea" is advocating for Jewish genocide. I think a more reasonable interpretation would be one of anti-Israeli excess in their response to the attacks of October 7. To quote from source [3] above: "'The phrase ‘Palestine will be fre…

On the contrary, I think a great many pro-Palestine activists are inadvertently advocating for exactly that; that the chant, to them, implies that the Levant be restored to the control of non-Jewish Palestinians, and that Jewish interlopers lose that control. It's part of a very common perspective on Palestine that suggests Jewish Israelis are ethnically white European "settler colonists", which is false.

If you believe that Jewish Israelis could, in the worst case, just go back to Poland, then the "river to the sea" stuff seems more benign than it actually is.

As is so often the case, the effect of those words on the listener is important; if not as important as the intent of the speaker, it is at least worth consideration --- especially when, as in this case, the people saying it are literally advocating for an ethnic cleansing of their own, one they don't realize might also be a step towards genocide.

All this just back to my point that the "river to the sea" stuff is poisonous. If you're a slogan that both Hamas and the Kahanists use, something has gone terribly wrong.

Re: Ousted propaganda scholar accuses Harvard of bowing to Meta

#414

Post by graphe »

tuwtuwtuwtuw wrote: post #393
graphe wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is "the truth" about animal fats or plant oils? What is the disinformation for it?

I still have no idea what point you are trying to make. I have not claimed to be an expert on the topic, I only asked why no one can be an expert. It sounds like your view is that no one can be an expert on disinformation because some topics are disputed. That's an "interesting" take. I guess that reasoning would leave pretty few experts in the world.

Saying they are experts are like telling you who is sexy or not. It's subjective. Some people really consider Marx or Friedman as the truth for instance. Digging deeper in the weeds we can make claims either way.

Experts are often self appointed as well. If I was to declare myself an expert in an obscure area you don't understand by making wild claims that sound plausible it would be hard to say I wasn't and if some peers accepted it it would be even harder to deny it.

An expert shouldn't be self appointed and if nobody trustworthy calls someone an expert they shouldn't be considered one too. If you consider someone an expert on your own by their knowledge it's different.

Re: Ousted propaganda scholar accuses Harvard of bowing to Meta

#415

Post by networkchad »

petre wrote: post #405
bo1024 wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"To summarize the summary of the summary: people are a problem." -Douglas Adams. Insularity is both the strength and weakness of academia. Unfortunately, I feel we are sliding toward the worst of both worlds: an administrative "ruling class" that is insulated from consequences, but also allowed to constrain and control the educators/researchers.

You were quite close to a 1917 style red revolution on US soil. Only the reds wore maga baseball caps that time and most of them were right wingers. Fortunately Trump backed down by the time the FBI tactical teams arrived. I don't think anyone is insulated by consequences, but I have yet to see a former US president go to prison.

[dead]

Re: Ousted propaganda scholar accuses Harvard of bowing to Meta

#416

Post by kogus »

afavour wrote: post #133
kogus wrote: post #85

The surprise to me is that anyone would ever expect companies like X or Facebook to pay more than lip service to the idea of being an open public platform. These are private companies who want to 1) Attract a lot of eyeballs 2) Sell ad space in front of those eyeballs That's all. To bastardize a Lincoln quote[1]: My paramount object in this struggle is to make a profit and is not either to save or to destroy free spe…

I don’t really see how your comment is at all relevant to the topic at hand. The accusation is that Facebook used a donation to Harvard to silence a critic, it has absolutely nothing to do with whether that criticism is published on Facebook or not.

I guess you are right; I kind of fly off the handle when I see this kind of topic come up. But the underlying premise of the research in question is that Facebook should be an unbiased, moderated forum for open public discourse. I just don't see how anyone could reasonably expect that to happen.

Re: Ousted propaganda scholar accuses Harvard of bowing to Meta

#417

Post by boringg »

macksd wrote: post #234
jcheng wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure why I decided to spend so much time on this on a Monday morning but I've read to page 35, and the picture is much more muddled. It looks like the FB Archive project gains momentum and launches but Dr. Donovan and the TASC get sidelined along the way (which understandably is very upsetting, you can feel the pain on every page). It does seem clear that the Dean doesn't approve of Dr. Donovan/TASC and he eventu…

I think sidelining the lead researcher and giving the project to another group is accurately described at "gutting a team". No, they didn't end the project, but the series of events described seems to be insinuating that she could have led the project if she was willing to have her work funded by Facebook, listen to one of their former people, etc. So if that was their goal, and they just got someone else to do the w…

FWIW that's definitely not gutting a team. Swapping out leaders makes a big impact but it isn't gutting a team. It could lead to the same outcome.

Re: Ousted propaganda scholar accuses Harvard of bowing to Meta

#418

Post by qaq »

drawkward wrote: post #408
qaq wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can hard disagree, but there are polls showing pretty wide spread support for specifically Hamas among students especially at elite UCs. The goals of Hamas are articulated pretty clearly so as comforting as it is to pretend they don't mean it in the bad way a very decent percentage literally do mean it. If you honestly believe they don't mean it do a fun experiment stand with say flag of Israel on UC Berkley or U…

You went from >There are polls showing support specifically for Hamas not for Palestinian liberation cause among students. to >there are polls showing pretty wide spread support for specifically Hamas among students especially at elite UCs. Cite some evidence. I have found one poll that addresses the question of Hamas support among college students, and it does not support your claims at all . Furthermore, it was an…

You just posted it. 22% is widespread. If we are talking about people chanting slogan at a rally the 25% that support Israeli government obviously did not take part in it. So of those chanting it at a rally at the very least 30% literally mean it and up to half mostly mean it. It's also not far fetched that the more militant you are the more likely you to attend a rally in the first place. So those numbers get skewed higher. There is obvious correlation between how far left you and how likely you are to support Hamas. So in a place like UC Berkley support obviously scewes higher. But even if we ignore the scew if some university had student body where 9% supported KKK a lot and 13% supported it somewhat. And they had regular rallies with racist chants I would hope that this would be considered problematic by you and too wide spread to ignore.

Re: Ousted propaganda scholar accuses Harvard of bowing to Meta

#419

Post by drawkward »

tptacek wrote: post #413
drawkward wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It is reasonable for people hearing that slogan to assume the worst. Hard disagree. I do not think it reasonable to assume that an American college student chanting "from the river to the sea" is advocating for Jewish genocide. I think a more reasonable interpretation would be one of anti-Israeli excess in their response to the attacks of October 7. To quote from source [3] above: "'The phrase ‘Palestine will be fre…

On the contrary, I think a great many pro-Palestine activists are inadvertently advocating for exactly that; that the chant, to them, implies that the Levant be restored to the control of non-Jewish Palestinians, and that Jewish interlopers lose that control. It's part of a very common perspective on Palestine that suggests Jewish Israelis are ethnically white European "settler colonists", which is false. If you beli…

The fact that your and my interpretation of the modal meaning of "from the river to the sea" when chanted by American college students is so divergent points to the problem with "assuming the worst."

I agree that the phrase is poisonous, but I don't ascribe genocidal intent to the hypothetical modal speaker of it without knowing exactly who that speaker is. Consider it from a Bayesian standpoint: even if you test positive for a rare condition, the likelihood is overwhelming that the positive is a result of test error, and not actually having the underlying condition. Supporting genocide is exceedingly rare, thus is it not likely that someone who uses the phrase "from the river to the sea" should have the worst assumed about them. Perhaps your prior belief is different, and you think that support for genocide is common?

Re: Ousted propaganda scholar accuses Harvard of bowing to Meta

#420

Post by dang »

legutierr wrote: post #270

Somehow the human brain by default conflates the concepts of "being prestigious" and "having integrity". It's difficult to fight this cognitive bias that, I think, we all carry—but we must.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38519267.
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