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Not a real engineer (2019)

twitchard.github.io

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Re: Not a real engineer (2019)

#41
post #29

I just recently got into Steve Howe. He's considered one of, if not the best guitarist of all time and I came across a quote he had that said something like he wished guitarists would focus on being musicians. Same thing as coders to engineers. I've come across more technically able programmers than I am. But they aren't better engineers. And a lot of that is because I'm an entrepreneur and have a marketing secondary…

Just a minor note. Howe is good, one of the best yes, but Paco De Lucia reigns far above them all.

There are many ways to play a guitar. The Iron Maiden guitarists, blew away everyone else in the early 1980s with their guitar solos(and playing in harmony). They had mastered pretty much every technique you can use on the electric guitar. Tapping, etc.

Yet, they can not play like Paco De Lucia, who finger picks a nylon stringed guitar. And Paco De Lucia can't play like they can. So who is really best?

Re: Not a real engineer (2019)

#42
post #29

I just recently got into Steve Howe. He's considered one of, if not the best guitarist of all time and I came across a quote he had that said something like he wished guitarists would focus on being musicians. Same thing as coders to engineers. I've come across more technically able programmers than I am. But they aren't better engineers. And a lot of that is because I'm an entrepreneur and have a marketing secondary…

Just a minor note. Howe is good, one of the best yes, but Paco De Lucia reigns far above them all.

There is no best musician. Not just because there are a multitude of different skills that go into it, but also because nobody agrees on what weight to give to each of them or even what they are. This makes it impossible to make an absolute ranking. At best you would get a Pareto front made up of the greatest.

Re: Not a real engineer (2019)

#43
lol... I'd rather not... but that is only because some know where the word came from.

The phrase "Hoist with his own petard" comes from the young "Engineers"/soldiers tasked with breaching a castle door by rigging a bell shape charge, and sometimes getting tangled in the rigging.

Some mistake it as a wonderful title like Dr. or Mayor... others it is a job function like plumbing.

Yet very little has changed people wise in modern technology, and regulatory capture is rather popular. Strangely, these same places often also still charge money for bathroom access.

Engineer, Journeyman, Entrepreneur, and Tinkerer are all often still class specific pejoratives in some circles.

http://harmful.cat-v.org/people/basic-laws-of-human-stupidit...

Re: Not a real engineer (2019)

#44

I’ve lived both sides of this. I’ve been subjected to the mysterious whims and casual insults of the job-seeking process. I’ve also interviewed and rejected experienced candidates who talked a great game but couldn’t demonstrate the ability to code FizzBuzz-level problems in any language. It’s not a choice between “the tech interview sucks” and “the job market has many unqualified candidates.” Both can be true, and i…

> I've lived both sides of this. I’ve been subjected to the mysterious whims and casual insults of the job-seeking process.

I've grown to learn that it's important to understand that interviewing in particular and job-seeking in general is not an objective and impartial process, and the output is not deterministic or reproducible. You can be hired even when there are objectively better people in the race, and you can be sidelined right on the phone screening even though you are the ideal candidate. It's a crapshoot, and the only people claiming otherwise are motivated by a mix of survivorship bias with a need to avoid recognizing that the process is flawed by nature.

> I’ve also interviewed and rejected experienced candidates who talked a great game but couldn’t demonstrate the ability to code FizzBuzz-level problems in any language.

I'm afraid that this take is also a reflection of the cargo cult mentality that plagues recruiting. I personally know FANG engineers with half a dozen years of high-profile work who had to spend weeks training coding golf and algo&data structures trivia before passing the first round of interviews, all because these trivia games bear no resemblance with real world software engineering. In fact, I will go as far as to claim that they serve more as ladder-pulling than actual technical assessments. For example, once I was automatically rejected from a C++ position to work on a desktop app because I wasn't familiar with placement new. This also extends to framework tests. I know a guy who applied for a backend position who was rejected because even though he rolled out a Spring service from scratch that passed all integration tests, the interviewer complained about how the service did not commented the controllers. These are things that takes a single comment in a PR to address. I mean, is adding a comment w challenging technical feat? But somehow some interviewers reject candidates based on this nitpicking.

Re: Not a real engineer (2019)

#45

So it's not just me then. Is it implying that software engineer job adverts are fake? If the problem is oversupply of talent, you'd think salaries should drop as people compete for limited jobs... But that would only be the case if we had a free market. I feel like to get a job as a software engineer, you have to pretend to be brainwashed. Just act very friendly and optimistic, pretend to be member of a minority grou…

You need to (pretent to) be a conformist which is important to work in a team, especially in larger companies. Ability to accept compromise, work in conditions far from ideal, set aside unimportant differences. Being e. g. anti-vaxxer isn't often problem per-se, but it's a sign the person might be difficult to work with in a team setting.

It's similar with e. g. positive discrimination, I think many people silently object, but not being able to filter it out in business context is a bad sign.

Re: Not a real engineer (2019)

#46

lol... I'd rather not... but that is only because some know where the word came from. The phrase "Hoist with his own petard" comes from the young "Engineers"/soldiers tasked with breaching a castle door by rigging a bell shape charge, and sometimes getting tangled in the rigging. Some mistake it as a wonderful title like Dr. or Mayor... others it is a job function like plumbing. Yet very little has changed people wis…

"Hoist upon his own petard" is from Shakespeare and refers to the eructation of flatulence so violent it lifts one from their chair.

Re: Not a real engineer (2019)

#48

I just recently got into Steve Howe. He's considered one of, if not the best guitarist of all time and I came across a quote he had that said something like he wished guitarists would focus on being musicians. Same thing as coders to engineers. I've come across more technically able programmers than I am. But they aren't better engineers. And a lot of that is because I'm an entrepreneur and have a marketing secondary…

What are some examples on how a non coding skillset makes you a better engineer?

Re: Not a real engineer (2019)

#49

I just recently got into Steve Howe. He's considered one of, if not the best guitarist of all time and I came across a quote he had that said something like he wished guitarists would focus on being musicians. Same thing as coders to engineers. I've come across more technically able programmers than I am. But they aren't better engineers. And a lot of that is because I'm an entrepreneur and have a marketing secondary…

What are some examples on how a non coding skillset makes you a better engineer?

I learned how to time things and operate a system in parallel by working in commercial kitchens. I learned how to work with people and not be disheartened by them through working retail. And wrenching on cars requires diagnostics and logical thinking to determine what is actually broken without throwing a pile of parts at the problem.

Re: Not a real engineer (2019)

#50
post #44

I’ve lived both sides of this. I’ve been subjected to the mysterious whims and casual insults of the job-seeking process. I’ve also interviewed and rejected experienced candidates who talked a great game but couldn’t demonstrate the ability to code FizzBuzz-level problems in any language. It’s not a choice between “the tech interview sucks” and “the job market has many unqualified candidates.” Both can be true, and i…

> I've lived both sides of this. I’ve been subjected to the mysterious whims and casual insults of the job-seeking process. I've grown to learn that it's important to understand that interviewing in particular and job-seeking in general is not an objective and impartial process, and the output is not deterministic or reproducible. You can be hired even when there are objectively better people in the race, and you can…

> I personally know FANG engineers with half a dozen years of high-profile work who had to spend weeks training coding golf and algo&data structures trivia before passing the first round of interviews, all because these trivia games bear no resemblance with real world software engineering. In fact, I will go as far as to claim that they serve more as ladder-pulling than actual technical assessments...

FizzBuzz is a trivial technical problem, though, not a leetcode medium or even an easy. I agree with you that you shouldn't have to grind leetcode all day in order to be considered a valuable software developer; but the existence of people selling themselves as "engineers" but who can't solve fizzbuzz would go a long way towards explaining how we got into this leetcode situation in the first place, because such a person would not be able to be successful as a software developer and they need to be weeded out during the candidate search somehow because they are around and they do want the job.

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