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Automakers must build cheaper, smaller EVs to spur adoption, report says

arstechnica.com

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Re: Automakers must build cheaper, smaller EVs to spur adoption, report says

#61

Post by rgmerk »

droopyEyelids wrote: post #28
rgmerk wrote: post #10

In much of the world you can buy a BYD Atto 3, which sits in precisely this sector of the market. But not in the USA.

This is interesting because it shows some complexity inherent to a government supporting a domestic industry. Naively it seems like the government would block imports of the small Chinese EVs so that domestic industry could compete BUT domestic automakers do not want the segment of a $5k tiny vehicle to exist at all, and will not 'compete' for that market! The margins and sales on such a thing would hurt the us auto…

A quick clarification - neither I nor the article were talking about mini EVs.

It’s talking about vehicles the size of a Hyundai Kona or a Volkswagen T-Roc.

Re: Automakers must build cheaper, smaller EVs to spur adoption, report says

#62

Post by gergi137 »

tzs wrote: post #55
pmorici wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you get a Tesla it is solved now. The charging is seamless and reliable pretty much everywhere except the very most out of the way places. All the rest though that can't yet use Tesla's charging network I would agree total trash if you want to do a long trip and need charging. This should change in ~2 years when manufactures start making more EVs that are compatible with NACS (aka Tesla's super charger network)

> If you get a Tesla it is solved now. The charging is seamless and reliable pretty much everywhere except the very most out of the way places There are still places that aren't out of the way but lack Tesla network chargers. I'm on the other side of Puget Sound from Seattle, and Tesla's charger map shows nothing over here [1]. The nearest Tesla network chargers are in Seattle. Getting there and back is almost $30 in…

If you have a house, or apartment with access to a L1 or L2 charger, charging at home should cover 100% of your local trips and any longer trips, you'll inevitably pass by a Tesla supercharger in Sequim, Forks, Seattle, Tacoma, Burlington, Cle Elum, etc.

The fuel savings are dramatic in Washington with our low-cost electricity and relatively high gasoline prices. For example, I pay $0.11/kWh and EVs get 3-4mi/kWh. so thats about 3 cents per mile travelled.

Assuming 30mpg and $4/gallon, that's 13 cents per mile travelled or more than 4 times the cost per mile. And there are plenty of ICE vehicles that get less than 30mpg and gasoline is often more expensive than $4/gallon

Re: Automakers must build cheaper, smaller EVs to spur adoption, report says

#63

Post by floxy »

bombcar wrote: post #56
floxy wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

VW is apparently coming out with one next year... https://www.caranddriver.com/volkswagen/id-buzz-microbus

My suggestion that we move to an 18-24 month gestation were rejected and so a vehicle available today was needed. Hopefully it does well, but it would be nice to see EV minivans competitive with the low-end instead of being luxury items.

I'm as sticker shocked about inflation as anyone, is there a new minivan that is less expensive than the Kia Carnival (starts at $33,200)? Assuming $40k for the ID.Buzz, minus a $7,500 tax credit, gives about the same ball-park price.

https://www.kia.com/us/en/carnival-mpv

Re: Automakers must build cheaper, smaller EVs to spur adoption, report says

#64

Post by ZeroGravitas »

jabroni_salad wrote: post #5

Isn't the upsizing of vehicles because of consumer demand, though? They can sell crossovers and trucks into the consumer base at such volume and margin that it is worthwhile to simply stop making sedans. There are people like me who just want an electric honda fit but it seems like there aren't enough of us to be worth the effort.

BYD Seagull is probably a good Fit alternative.

https://cleantechnica.com/2023/04/29/byd-unleashes-the-seagu...

Don't know if they have US sales planned though.

Re: Automakers must build cheaper, smaller EVs to spur adoption, report says

#65

Post by Glench »

I guess what a lot of people don't understand is that if we want to keep a livable climate (within our carbon budget), basically every car anyone buys from here on out has to be electric. It's that urgent. If we started decarbonizing many years ago we wouldn't need such a breakneck speed, but alas.

Realistically based on current car prices and people's budgets and lack of charging infrastructure it's not happening as fast as needed. But it is still happening fast which is excellent! I hope it keeps accelerating!

Re: Automakers must build cheaper, smaller EVs to spur adoption, report says

#66

Post by roody15 »

Agree.. live north of i80 and in the winters here EV’s don’t have the range needed for rural areas. Hybrids works great and efficient ice’s do the trick.

Heating your Tesla and cold’s impact on lithium ion batteries equals really reduced range (40/50 percent loss of range).

It is surprising how quickly it seems people on online forums dismiss hybrids but honestly they seem to make the best sense at the right price point with our current tech. Just my two cents.

Re: Automakers must build cheaper, smaller EVs to spur adoption, report says

#67

Post by nwvg_7257 »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #18
nwvg_7257 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consumer report says hybrids are more reliable than ICE and EVs https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-reliability-owner-s... "Overall, hybrids have 26 percent fewer problems than cars powered by internal combustion engines (ICE)."

PHEV's are significantly less reliable, though. HEV's and PHEV's should have a similar level of reliability. The difference is that HEV's are mostly Toyotas and PHEV's mostly aren't. My impression is that non-Toyota hybrids are significantly less reliable than gasoline cars, but the article doesn't give enough data to tell for sure.

You might be right. It says one of the only reliable PHEVs is the Toyota RAV4 prime.

Still, I would expect the hybrid Camry to be more reliable than the gas Camry. Simpler transmission, engine turns off when idle, doesn't need to rev as high because of the electric assist.

Re: Automakers must build cheaper, smaller EVs to spur adoption, report says

#68

Post by jabroni_salad »

floxy wrote: post #30
jabroni_salad wrote: post #5

Isn't the upsizing of vehicles because of consumer demand, though? They can sell crossovers and trucks into the consumer base at such volume and margin that it is worthwhile to simply stop making sedans. There are people like me who just want an electric honda fit but it seems like there aren't enough of us to be worth the effort.

> electric Honda fit Are you looking for one specifically made by Honda? Or what is missing from the small electric hatchbacks like the Chevy Bolt or Nissan Leaf?

No, but something that stands out about the Fit is that Honda actually gives a shit and gives you a first rate experience in a small car. Compared to other cars in the same model year, the Fit always gives you more headroom, more interior space, more usability of that space, better visibility out every side, and a smaller overall footprint. Other manufacturers treat the category as just a fleet mpg helper and don't really care about what it is like to live with the car.

My 09 Fit is about to cross 350k miles and if it broke tomorrow I'd probably be cross shopping a newer used Fit and a used Golf. Electric is only a nice-to-have in my personal wants list, and I am not buying new so I don't really care about what's around the corner.

With regards to the chevy bolt, Regular Car Reviews drove a gen 1 Fit for ages so if he says a small car is sad, I think I can trust him.

Re: Automakers must build cheaper, smaller EVs to spur adoption, report says

#69

Post by timbit42 »

ClarityJones wrote: post #15
Abroszka wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hybrids doesn't make sense to me. If you need a car that runs on gas then make it a proper ICE car. Why put two engines into one? Seems super wasteful.

A Model 3's battery is 82kWh, a Camry Hybrid's battery is 1.6kWH. In terms of battery, you could produce (82 / 1.6 = 51.25) hybrids per fully electric car. The total fuel savings of replacing 10+ ICE cars with hybrids is an order of magnitude larger than replacing 1 ICE car with a fully electric car.

A PHEV battery is 1/10th the size of an EV battery typically giving about 50 km of range. 90% of most people's daily use is less than 50 km. We could build 10 PHEVs with the battery from one EV. This means instead of an EV cutting fossil fuel use by 100%, 10 PHEVs could cut fossil fuel use by 90% x 10 = 900%.

PHEVs also charge faster due to the battery being 1/10th the size but they don't require buying a 240v charger and can be charged using 120v in 1/5th the time of an EV.

If you don't have anywhere to charge, you'll have to get an HEV.

Re: Automakers must build cheaper, smaller EVs to spur adoption, report says

#70

Post by tzs »

gergi137 wrote: post #62
tzs wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you get a Tesla it is solved now. The charging is seamless and reliable pretty much everywhere except the very most out of the way places There are still places that aren't out of the way but lack Tesla network chargers. I'm on the other side of Puget Sound from Seattle, and Tesla's charger map shows nothing over here [1]. The nearest Tesla network chargers are in Seattle. Getting there and back is almost $30 in…

If you have a house, or apartment with access to a L1 or L2 charger, charging at home should cover 100% of your local trips and any longer trips, you'll inevitably pass by a Tesla supercharger in Sequim, Forks, Seattle, Tacoma, Burlington, Cle Elum, etc. The fuel savings are dramatic in Washington with our low-cost electricity and relatively high gasoline prices. For example, I pay $0.11/kWh and EVs get 3-4mi/kWh. so…

Indeed. Washington is the state where EVs have the most advantage. A while back I did a comparison between a Chevy Bolt EV and similar non-hybrid ICE cars. EV wins on energy costs per unit distance whenever G/E > 9.4, where G is the cost of gas in $/gal and E is the cost of electricity in $/kWh.

G/E is around 36 right now in Western Washington.

Even in the state with the lowest G/E, Hawaii, G/E > 11 so EV wins.

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