Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

businessinsider.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

541–550 of 618 posts

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#541

Post by scarface_74 »

93po wrote: post #479
scarface_74 wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At this point in my life, I can honestly say there is no realistic amount of money I’m willing to give up for my lifestyle. It’s not my dream to make a lot of money. It’s my dream to do exactly what my wife and I are doing right now: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36767599

Same. Anything over $200k really means very little to me. I'd rather live in a place I love, which fortunately is actually Seattle, haha.

Referencing the link above, I can meet all of our spending needs comfortable if we just sat at home making $140K.

We could live our current hybrid snowbirder/nomad lifestyle for $160K.

Anything over $160K goes straight to “increasing net worth goals”

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#542

Post by disambiguation »

nine_zeros wrote: post #367
nemo44x wrote: post #164

Although I think mandatory rankings and assuming the bottom x% should be exited isn’t great approach, I also don’t think it’s a company or managers job to coach you into being a productive employee. Yes, they should have direct feedback but overall you are expected to be a professional. This means you are accountable for your work - you do what you say you will. That you express concern early and not late in the proc…

I know you are getting downvoted but the real question is: What is a manager's job? If it is not to code, not to understand systems, not to design, not to coach, not to help the team - what is it exactly?

Not sure if rhetorical or you just want GPs answer, but my 2c:

It's simply to do the bidding of upper management while making sure your underlings don't flee to greener pastures.

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#543

Post by scarface_74 »

Arainach wrote: post #510
scarface_74 wrote: post #503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean looking at Googles abysmal track record compared to its peers when it comes to creating and sustaining new products and product categories over the last two decades is not exactly an argument for their hiring process.

The decision to sustain products is at the executive level, not the ground level.

It’s also part of the promotion culture where no one shows “impact” by sustaining an existing project.

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#544

Post by rad_gruchalski »

giantg2 wrote: post #524
rad_gruchalski wrote: post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider a different job, and pick up some responsibilities.

What are you talking about? I can't change jobs now due to home life responsibilities and having specialized in dead tech. I have picked up responsibilities. In the past I've filled the role of a senior dev for a year and a tech lead for another. I volunteered to be an ASC. I volunteered for all sorts of other responsibilities. Perhaps the world doesn't work in the way that you think. It's not possible for everyone t…

> Just picking up responsibilities doesn't mean you'll get rewarded.

I'm sorry, I did not mean to attack, or otherwise offend you. I was attempting to say that one can look for an opportunity to work in an environment where one can feel appreciated. I'd employ a person with such experience as long as they'd know some basics. What's TLS, how does it work, roughly. What's DNS. TCP vs UDP. At least understanding of what problems are solved (or created, if you are in that camp) by Kubernetes. Docker basics. Read open source code.

Those are interesting subjects. I'm sure there is a ton of hypothetical past problems one could attempt to modernize and have fun while doing so.

It's just a free opinion of someone on the internet!

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#545

Post by steveBK123 »

geodel wrote: post #489
scarface_74 wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you have the scale of Amazon, you don’t need a lot of go getters. Just a relatively few and a lot of grunts. One CS leetCode grinder at the L5 level is replaceable with another.

I think this is really important point. Somehow lot of folks are missing it. As if each engineer is responsible for launching a new Amazon service every year. I have heard and met many current Amazon software engineer. Most of their job description sound rather crappy routine work even for me earning 1/3rd salary of Amazon. I surmise large number of engineers there are just collecting bounty on Amazon monopoly on clo…

Yeah, to be fair.. the people I know from Wall St tech that left for Amazon were not the best tech people I knew. The best tech people would have found more well compensated roles within Wall St tech.

Generally a mix of people who exhausted other paths to higher compensation by their mid 30s - mid 40s (senior management track / trader track) and this was the next big thing.

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#546

Post by throwrhpip »

tempnow987 wrote: post #539
throwrhpip wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was put on a PIP at Red Hat that was quite farcical and very much about personality disconnects between myself and my manager (and made much more annoying by the fact that he had told me before the PIP that multiple other managers had let him know that they would be interested in me being on their team if I was looking for something different - instead he went the PIP route). There was room for improvement (isn't t…

I'm often confused by folks going to great lengths to "prove" stuff to HR. Why? HR works for the company / manager. Focus on yourself. Your greatest power is not in arguing with a boss who doesn't like you. You can do things like switch teams internally - just put in for a switch. Start interviewing and work for another company and find someone who does like working with you. Maybe even go work for yourself. Even whe…

> I'm often confused by folks going to great lengths to "prove" stuff to HR. Why? HR works for the company / manager.

In this case, if they had fought unemployment, there was factual and objective evidence against their case. "On review, his work output was unsatisfactory". "According to Google, you never reviewed said work output."

> You can do things like switch teams internally - just put in for a switch.

This pissed me off - I could easily have switched teams, even per my manager. Until he announced that I was now on a PIP. No manager is going to approve a transfer to their team, then.

Like I said, I had no expectations that any of this would change anything with respect to my termination. I'd moved on, and wouldn't want to keep being there.

But worst case scenario: "The employee's plan said that they could do X, Y and Z. You stated that they were terminated because they didn't do X, Y and Z." "Yes." "How did you determine that?" "By reviewing those things." "But it can be demonstrated that you conducted no such review."

In my state, that would mean they'd have to demonstrate that I was actually fired for misconduct, not performance, to make me ineligible for benefits.

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#547

Post by jameshart »

crote wrote: post #67
me_me_me wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PIPs (at least in europe) are a way for company to prove employee was fired because they are incompetent. We tried to help employee X, see the paperwork? But they are not good enough. Its a system to shield company from local laws and lawsuits. Its not a sign of cowardliness or incompetence. Its cold calculation and foolproof process, that on scale protects corpo from multi-million settlements I have only heard secon…

Wouldn't that be extremely bad for the company? If virtually all PIPs result in firing, wouldn't it be trivial to argue that either 1) the company is misusing PIPs as a stealth way to fire people, or 2) the company is completely incompetent when it comes to providing PIPs that actually work . With most European labour laws, neither option is very good for the company.

No, because there is actually such a thing as a bad employee. Labor laws are not a get out of jail free card for being bad at your job. Firing people is not actually illegal.

PIPs actually work if they provide evidence that someone actually cannot do the job they were hired to do.

That all the employees put on such PIPs fail would be evidence that they are doing a good job of identifying bad employees to fire, not that they don't actually know how to improve performance.

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#548

Post by TrackerFF »

vasco wrote: post #63

If in a PIP you can actually improve the thing in question, then the PIP is useless and your manager failed to communicate it to you properly. In all other cases a PIP is not passable. Nobody becomes a significantly better engineer in 2 months if they haven't in their career so far, with the only new factor in the 2 months being "now you have extra pressure and a clock ticking".

Well, you also have the case of very competent engineers underperforming due to stuff happening outside home.

Martial problems, family problems, health problems, depression, addiction, and what not.

Not saying that two months is enough to resolve those problems, but if for whatever reason such engineers are able to finally block those stressors, and bring their A-game to "beat" the PIP, then that should absolutely be a good reason to keep them aboard.

A PIP should not be a delayed 2-month firing process. It should be a legitimate chance for someone to improve.

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#549

Post by geodel »

Terr_ wrote: post #441
moate wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly this. “Are you willing to kill another human? No? Sorry, there’s no place for you in the infantry”

I feel a better analogy would involve (A) a demand that is outside the official job-description or duties and (B) isn't a fixed-bar but instead makes multiple employees fight each other in an indefinite race to the bottom. Ex: "Are you willing to spend your free time becoming the General's #1 personal servant? No? Sorry, there's no place for you in the infantry."

I don't find better but more vague perhaps in attempt to sound nuanced.

If one goes by job description Amazon is acting strictly within those parameters. And that race to the bottom is not really hunger games.

On the other hand if one goes by unsaid rules of games, everyone including management, HR, employee know FAANG salary is multiple times of equivalent IT workers. And perhaps 95% of FAANG employees are not really developing new algorithms, hauling terabytes of data on their shoulders or being the force of good whatever that means. Just keep doing made-up work and wait until reach x million dollars goal. After that leave quietly or loudly by writing a nasty blog post lambasting management.

So mostly people understand they have to keep up the facade because talking about what's really happening will make it rather awkward for everyone.

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#550

Post by DanAtC »

ballenf wrote: post #116
kudokatz wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if this is the case, it doesn't feel like they tried very hard? I don't think you get it. The way this stuff is done is just as described - totally blindsiding, and potentially flat-out gaslighting. There's no actual metrics or data until they fabricate a paper trail and force you out. You don't win these things. Rather, you take your money and go elsewhere. Then turn down the subsequent job offers you get from the…

But it sounds like he won? He got his $200k and found a new job before any PIP was implemented? Why would his manager have been upset if they were actually trying to force him out? Surely HR knows how long it takes to exit someone and if they wanted to keep the $200k they would have started the process earlier?

The manager was upset because leaving before PIP is regretted attrition which is a metric the manager themselves could get PIPed for.
Post reply on HN