Live data from Hacker News

I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

businessinsider.com

521–530 of 618 posts

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#521

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't, even for the surgeon thing, they probably shouldn't be skipping ranks. If the MOS needs a specific level of pay, they should address it by changes to that duty pay and revamping the retirement system to look at that pay too. The automotive executive is a little different since you do what them to oversee everything since they are an industry expert, not just a individual contributor or midlevel manager. Funn…

Docs in the military have a bonus structure based on their specialty area that's supposed to at least try to keep their pay from being ridiculously behind. And the idea behind bringing a surgeon in as an O-5 is that a surgeon has that level of seniority as a medical practitioner, so it aligns with their field. To bring an O-5 cyber person in, they would be expected to have enough experience as a cybersecurity profess…

"Docs in the military have a bonus structure based on their specialty area that's supposed to at least try to keep their pay from being ridiculously behind."

Tries is the key word there. Most of the time it's not even close unless you're a family practicioner or other lower paid specialty. On the other hand, there is a retirement program (although that's based on base pay and not as great for roles like this) and they don't need mal-practice. At least to me, it seems the biggest way they get docs is to pay for their med school if they commit to 8-12 years or whatever it is for them now.

"To bring an O-5 cyber person in, they would be expected to have enough experience as a cybersecurity professional to rate that rank."

I mean, that makes sense in a general sense, but doesn't really make sense the way it works now. There are plenty of people with experience that if they were external would come in at a higher rank than they are now. I'm not sure how you would design a good system for an industry where people jump companies every 2-3 years, are expecting high pay (at least O5 with 10 years), are used to rapid promotions, and are used to lots of perks. I mean, you could have someone with 5 years of internal experience with a great record be something like O3 and have someone external be called a senior analyst/dev or lead in 3-5 years and come in as an O5 with basically no difference in duties or performance.

Although I'm not sure how you would even measure performance in that role. The industry doesn't have clue how to measure it - just look at the article or all the stuff about interviews and leetcode. The military might set some more objective standards, but they're not going to remotely apply to external candidates.

I don't know, I guess in general I would imagine the best thing for stability, readiness, and even morale, would be to train and promote from within while focusing on retention. It sounds like they're already providing bonuses for all levels and saying they're focusing on retention, but clearly they have other issues. I doubt bringing people in at a higher rank will fix that.

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#522

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even Bezos?

"Everybody" meaning "the normie plebs who work for a living".

I think I did read about there having been extensive succession plans and efforts established already

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#523
post #483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, but to mention that once, at least at amazon, you enter the pip processs. You are no longer able to move teams. And if you get removed. Not able to apply to return.

It's surprising companies don't seem interested in understanding their employees well enough to know that the cost of re-hiring and re-training vs trying to find a better fit in the org is not a good idea. Some industries coach the employee into a different role, or help them exit more openly.

I've even seen articles about how Amazon chews through so many people that they're having trouble finding "virgin" hires. Everyone in their pool is already fed up with them or were PIP'd.

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#524

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been bouncing for about 5 years. Have about another 20 to go. Not sure how I'm going to handle that.

Consider a different job, and pick up some responsibilities.

What are you talking about?

I can't change jobs now due to home life responsibilities and having specialized in dead tech.

I have picked up responsibilities. In the past I've filled the role of a senior dev for a year and a tech lead for another. I volunteered to be an ASC. I volunteered for all sorts of other responsibilities.

Perhaps the world doesn't work in the way that you think. It's not possible for everyone to successfully job hop, especially with a disability and home responsibilities. Just picking up responsibilities doesn't mean you'll get rewarded.

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#525
post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stack Ranking was pioneered by Jack Welch who was operating in an environment where labor was the dominant party in the labor-capital relationship, and he was taking over companies that had had decades of labor growth and power while capital was stagflating nationwide. Introducing stack ranking was a way of trimming excess fat from decades of build up within companies, while reasserting capital in the relationship wi…

Jack Welch also mostly made his mark by juicing earnings via both financializing the whole company going into the GFC, and by doing various forms of (probably illegal then, definitely now) accounting tricks to smooth earnings to always make his number. GE was run into the ground by his tenure.

This. GE Financial was an earnings laundering operation

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#526

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, that was a risk I was willing to take by disclosing my disability. So far it doesn't seem like it made anything worse, but it hasn't made anything better either.

I'd speak to an employment lawyer and see what they advise. A couple hundred bucks for the piece of mind might be worth it. You'd get an opinion on what they can and can't do and what you can do to proactively manage the situation.

Thanks but I don't think I will. The thing about disabilities is that they have to provide reasonable accommodations. What is reasonable is wildly subjective. There's really not much to be done.

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#527
post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're mistaken in that you believe that the goal of culls is to cut underperformers. Stack ranking doesn't assess performance, it checks whether you're willing to do a little more to be ahead of your peers. The real goal of culls is to motivate people to work more, to be more accessible to their managers' requests, etc. so they make it "to the next round". It's a pressure tool, not a performance control tool.

This sort of thing is one of the big reasons why I would never work for a FAANG company. I prefer to work at a place that encourages good work rather than a weird cutthroat arena combat thing.

This is happening not only in FAANG companies but also a lot (if not, all) of companies. Unless you are in a hyper-growth company, you are more likely to see this kind of performance management process to continuously review and cut.

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Senior Manager here. This is common to any large entity and may only influenced by workers' rights and culture. 1. Large numbers In large companies, you have numbers. There are 10000 individuals so to say. There is a difference between individuals and groups. The larger the group, the more HR and controlling tend to use their understanding of statistics. This is the conflict between groups and individuals. Why take c…

> Why take care of one person? In sum, it does not pay off. That assessment is extremely short-sighted. The reason it will pay off is because other employees will see how you treat the one person. If they see you give someone who is struggling needed support, they will know that in the future, they might get that as well. Having a stable environment full of people who trust each other will pay off far more in the fut…

I read a bit of sarcasm in parent comment. It seemed they were "telling it how it is" not agreeing with the way it is.

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was put on a PIP at Red Hat that was quite farcical and very much about personality disconnects between myself and my manager (and made much more annoying by the fact that he had told me before the PIP that multiple other managers had let him know that they would be interested in me being on their team if I was looking for something different - instead he went the PIP route). There was room for improvement (isn't t…

How did we get to this? WTF happened? To treat another human being like this. The pathetic little weasels cannot even straight out tell someone they’re fired. They have to play this humiliating game of pretending you can affect the outcome and that there’s something wrong with you. Satanic.

100% - I would have taken a simple "This isn't working out for us. We appreciate your efforts. Today will be your last day." over all this.

For insult on injury, they declined severance "as we do not offer severance for performance-related termination", after acknowledging that it had been shown that my manager had done nothing to actually assess my performance in the PIP (I suppose their claim will be that the performance issues led to the PIP).

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If 6-30% are failing year after year after year, you can't blame the interview process. You could blame the leadership failure that didn't fix the interview process, though.

Really it's indicative of Amazon treating their employees as disposable. They have enough employment market power still to attract enough great talent to burn through individuals in 2-3 years. Eventually they run out of meat or they soften the process. Of all the FAANG, I almost admire Amazon for chewing up & disposing of their white collar work force the same way they do their blue collar. The other guys are all pre…

I love that description
Post reply on HN