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I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

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Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#481

Post by 93po »

zug_zug wrote: post #425
hiAndrewQuinn wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the draw for me. Now that I've adequately licked my wounds from a life where I just never quite had the stability I needed (and got that stability too ofc), I now really want to work for Amazon just to see how hard I can push myself. I've told my wife the current plan is, once she has her degree finished, I'm going to crowbar my way into one of their software engineering departments by any means necessary.

Seems like a weird way to push yourself. Like what if it turns out you join a team that ranks you more based on politics/caste/luck than any sort of talent or motivation and you just feel trapped in a weird game?

You come out of it with Amazon on your resume which makes it super easy to get jobs.

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#482

Post by theGnuMe »

giantg2 wrote: post #364
babyshake wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can discriminate against you. They just need to make sure it's not obviously discrimination.

Yeah, that was a risk I was willing to take by disclosing my disability. So far it doesn't seem like it made anything worse, but it hasn't made anything better either.

I'd speak to an employment lawyer and see what they advise. A couple hundred bucks for the piece of mind might be worth it. You'd get an opinion on what they can and can't do and what you can do to proactively manage the situation.

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#483

Post by j45 »

Arelius wrote: post #421
closeparen wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Leadership was asked why not find new roles for people getting laid off due to project cancellations at a time when we were still hiring like crazy in the immediate run-up and aftermath. The response was “we need to move fast.” They encouraged those laid off to apply for open roles. But of course it read to employees as a monumental “fuck you.”

Well, but to mention that once, at least at amazon, you enter the pip processs. You are no longer able to move teams. And if you get removed. Not able to apply to return.

It's surprising companies don't seem interested in understanding their employees well enough to know that the cost of re-hiring and re-training vs trying to find a better fit in the org is not a good idea.

Some industries coach the employee into a different role, or help them exit more openly.

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#484

Post by j45 »

kjkjadksj wrote: post #409
giantg2 wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing about fat that I think is overlooked is how fat today might be muscle tomorrow, and how little companies try to convert it. Maybe a person is in a bad role, on a bad team, or simply doesn't have experience or skills fitting the specific requirements of that single point in time. I've been a high performer in the past. Now I'm a low performer (I'm slow) after the company has changed the way it treats teams/w…

This is just how companies operate today. Burn furniture to heat the place for a quarter. Sell your property to a for profit entity you lease from instead to save a line item today and no doubt get screwed when its time to renegotiate the lease (long after whoever made this decision has left the company I’m sure). Fire staff and rehire instead of retrain. Its all myopic thinking that you’d find in any MBA program sol…

Modernizing MBA's will have to happen at some point.

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#485

Post by scarface_74 »

93po wrote: post #478
scarface_74 wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was peripherally involved in a project that was going sideways and I was an easy target. In hindsight, while the reason for me to put “on focus”, I honestly admit was maybe 70% my fault. I could have handled a horrible customer better. On the other hand, the PIP itself was a setup. During the focus period, I met all of the criteria and had perfect CSAT scores on two customer projects I led (Professional Services) a…

I don't know if this feels like I'm diminishing your accomplishments, but it's nice to hear your advancement out of CRUD development in your 40s. I'm mid 30s now and have always struggled to get out of this web development rut and jobs that pay $100k despite having 8+ years experience (which is admittedly lackluster) and multiple senior titles.

No not insulted at all. I am very transparent about my career here and on Reddit (same username) about my career.

I’ve also talked about how I transitioned.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37446115

It was because of a manager who was “irrationally benevolent” who I’m still friends with now.

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#486

Post by johhns4 »

scarface_74 wrote: post #339
francisofascii wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, Assuming you will be fired eventually and will have to fall back to a normal CRUD job is the right play when taking these high pressure, high salary roles. Any idea why you were PIPed after 3 years?

I was peripherally involved in a project that was going sideways and I was an easy target. In hindsight, while the reason for me to put “on focus”, I honestly admit was maybe 70% my fault. I could have handled a horrible customer better. On the other hand, the PIP itself was a setup. During the focus period, I met all of the criteria and had perfect CSAT scores on two customer projects I led (Professional Services) a…

I also just signed as soon as I knew what they were after. I just asked how much I was getting. No need to put yourself through this. I was a high performer and had been juggling up to 4 jobs by that time and was about to go on my first vacation after 14 months. They said "I looked a bit tired."

Obviously my vacation became an extended vacation instead.

I got a text a few months afterwards where they asked how I had made it look so easy. I'm still perplexed by the whole ordeal. But it was probably for the best anyways.

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#487

Post by JohnMakin »

intunderflow wrote: post #58

I've heard so many terrible stories about working at Amazon that I'm not sure I would ever work there, both in the media and from friends who were severely mistreated. It's a shame, because some of the tech they work on (like S3) is super interesting and high scale, but I do not want to acquire a mental health crisis from work.

I'm the same way. It sounds horrible, but I would probably give a limb just to take a peek at the guts of AWS.

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#488

Post by capableweb »

Firmwarrior wrote: post #449
capableweb wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since you avoided the question, I'm guessing I was spot on :) And I'd guarantee you that someone who worked five years for a average German company definitely has incurred less mental stress than someone working one year for Amazon, on average. But I also recognize that it's hard to see the difference between the two cultures if you only have the experience of one of them, and the "hard working pays off" system is so…

I think you need to go touch grass, or at least check out some real numbers and think about them https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/berlin-... https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/san-fra... How many years are you going to have to save up to retire at $240k/year vs $80k/year, do you think? Would you rather grind 10 months a year until you're too old to do anything but sit around and…

> How many years are you going to have to save up to retire at $240k/year vs $80k/year, do you think? Would you rather grind 10 months a year until you're too old to do anything but sit around and watch TV, or would you rather grind 12 months a year for 5-10 years and then do whatever you want for the rest of your life?

This is the mindset difference I'm telling you about. The rest of us don't want to "grind" at all, never. Not now, not later.

We want a work/life balance that allows us to do whatever we want to do when we retire, but now. Spend time with family, enjoy hobbies or whatever, but not wait until retirement to do so.

This is how many of my friends already live, as they've chosen jobs that allow them a balance in life, without any "grind" or "hacking" or whatever you want to call it.

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#489

Post by geodel »

scarface_74 wrote: post #309
Firmwarrior wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that forced attrition doesn't create a dynamic, competitive environment full of go-getters. It creates an environment full of treacherous bums who work as little as possible, and spend all of their efforts making sure they look good and don't take the blame for any failures. You can see the results of this in Amazon's consistently poor companywide performance in every arena. They're even managing to lo…

When you have the scale of Amazon, you don’t need a lot of go getters. Just a relatively few and a lot of grunts. One CS leetCode grinder at the L5 level is replaceable with another.

I think this is really important point. Somehow lot of folks are missing it. As if each engineer is responsible for launching a new Amazon service every year. I have heard and met many current Amazon software engineer. Most of their job description sound rather crappy routine work even for me earning 1/3rd salary of Amazon.

I surmise large number of engineers there are just collecting bounty on Amazon monopoly on cloud infra. Their skill and work is not more challenging or interesting than hundreds of thousand engineers at 20-30% income of Amazon in boring enterprise IT shop.

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#490

Post by landemva »

pierat wrote: post #457
commandlinefan wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My ancestors were coal miners in Tennessee. They tried to reason with their employers for a long time to establish reasonable working conditions. When it became clear that their employers were not going to listen to reason, they found other ways to establish reasonable working conditions.

Well, yes. And lets expand that. The coal miners' solution was to get a bunch of guns and/or gasoline, and either pump bullets in the bosses' house, or to torch it with gasoline. Usually both. That was responded to by bringing in the Pinkertons (private military), along with the US military. These got horrifically bloody. And it got to a point, that by the 1920's, the USA had a strong representation of US Communist P…

There was serious labor abuse in past years, and capital doesn't have as much power in the new info-WFH-open source economy. Mineral rights and office space and expensive yearly software support contracts are gone. Stop waiting on government regulators for action on white collar issues.
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