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The 1988 shooting down of Flight 655 as a user interface disaster

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Re: The 1988 shooting down of Flight 655 as a user interface disaster

#631

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What do you mean by 'actual'? I mean the historical Nazis from WW2. Again: you admitted that not all Wehrmacht soldiers were evil, monsters, or even Nazis (other than nominally). But, in your words, all soldiers fighting for the Russian Federation right now in their aggression on Ukraine - are all bad people. I'm asking, why do you agree to cut some slack for the former but are unwilling to do so for the latter? Ot…

> Again: you admitted that not all Wehrmacht soldiers were evil, monsters, or even Nazis (other than nominally). I mostly meant that I don't think all of them should have been executed, 18 million Germans served in the Wehrmacht. > I don't believe some Hans or Johann deserves to be hated 70 years later because of what happened back then. The russians have been oppressing and killing Ukrainians for over 300 years, 199…

> The russians have been oppressing and killing Ukrainians for over 300 years

I know - and they did the same here, in Poland. We've lost our sovereignty, our culture was suppressed for centuries, and then we lost our elites in mass killings under Stalin again. I know, and believe me - I don't love Russians, nor do I support them.

They are culturally closer to the Mongol hordes of Genghis Khan than to Europeans. Not that Europeans have no skeletons in their closets, esp. regarding the colonies and what they did to Africa - but the Russian Empire and its later incarnations did a lot of bad things. I agree with that.

But, I still don't want to classify all of them as "evil". They think differently, have different values, and are brought up with particular ideology that disregards things like human rights or democracy. They don't know any better, and it's not their fault they were born into such a culture or society. You don't get to choose where you're born!

Still, I understand your point of view. I disagree with forcefully re-educating and assimilating them - that's precisely what they did to us for centuries, and that's wrong. But, as long as we agree that:

> While killing all of them is wrong

We can talk, discuss, and find some common ground. What I'm against is blind rage, blanket hatred, and taking revenge just for the sake of it. But rationally, Russians, as they currently are, pose a real threat, and we need to contain that threat somehow. We should be able to do so without killing and even more bloodshed. At least, that's what I hope for.

I'll repeat: I think most Russians, even the soldiers, are ordinary people. It's just that normal people, when put in certain circumstances (like the famous prison experiment), tend to do evil things. You and me, we'd probably do those things too, had we lived the way Russians live. Let's talk about shaping the circumstances (also through re-educating them, if possible, without a threat of physical violence) so that they can live their lives in ways that don't threaten their neighbors - ways that don't bring the worst of human nature to the front.

In any case, no killing, please. Other than that, though, all options should be on the table (even if I disagree with some).

Re: The 1988 shooting down of Flight 655 as a user interface disaster

#632

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hilarious that someone that says it's in Ukraine, "country at war", writes that God bless an state that has brought that same war to hundreds of places in the world. In an article discussing an incident where the country that God should bless killed 290 innocent civilians because they wanted to. Not very different from Russia to me.

What a weird take. Is it really so hard to put yourself in their shoes? If my country was being attacked and America gave us weapons to fight back I'd also say "god bless America" even though I don't believe in god and I'm very aware of all attrocities America has committed in wars across the globe(and still does). Is that so hard to imagine? >>Not very different from Russia to me. Did you think about this sentence f…

> Is it really so hard to put yourself in their shoes?

So was it really hard for him to put himself in the shoes of the people to whom America did what Russia is doing to his country? I guess being in the same situation would make him to better empathize with these peoples. But maybe not.

> If my country was being attacked and America gave us weapons to fight back I'd also say "god bless America" even though I don't believe in god and I'm very aware of all attrocities America has committed in wars across the globe(and still does). Is that so hard to imagine?

I don't know. What would you think if some random Syrian guy wrote "God bless Russia" in a post talking about the Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 which was, allegedly, shot sown by Russian forces in the Dombass?

Re: The 1988 shooting down of Flight 655 as a user interface disaster

#633
post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cargo don't. Converted intelligence/C4I planes? Often do. Also, logos like that aren't that well readable especially at speed, and the actual shootdown happened in a way that could be mistaken for evasive maneuveurs. Essentially, I feel that if we're going to let UX take part of the blame for Iran Air 655, we have to allow wider narrative for KAL007 as well (Personally I think humans are directly at fault for both ca…

The only converted 747s with the distinctive double row of windows in military use are the Air Force One and E-4 aircraft I already mentioned. Neither of which is going to be anywhere near Soviet airspace without the Soviets knowing long, long in advance. I also quoted the pilot himself . Further from him: https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xpm-1996-12-09-19963440... > "I was just next to him, on the same altitude,…

And I refer to the last sentence. Refitting as a custom job can be very easy, they didn't assume it was a mass produced standardized variant.

Re: The 1988 shooting down of Flight 655 as a user interface disaster

#634

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hilarious that someone that says it's in Ukraine, "country at war", writes that God bless an state that has brought that same war to hundreds of places in the world. In an article discussing an incident where the country that God should bless killed 290 innocent civilians because they wanted to. Not very different from Russia to me.

What a weird take. Is it really so hard to put yourself in their shoes? If my country was being attacked and America gave us weapons to fight back I'd also say "god bless America" even though I don't believe in god and I'm very aware of all attrocities America has committed in wars across the globe(and still does). Is that so hard to imagine? >>Not very different from Russia to me. Did you think about this sentence f…

[flagged]

Re: The 1988 shooting down of Flight 655 as a user interface disaster

#635

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s “Russia made no efforts to contact” and “Russia made no efforts to search” both of which indicate it was because Russia was up to no good. Funny how you ignore the reasons the commenter you’re replying to gives to indicate Russia did it because it was evil, reasons which do not apply to the U.S. case, and pretend they never gave those explanations at all.

The point is that 1) those reasons are themselves assuming a particular value system in order to judge evil (for someone who believes national sovereignty is absolute, neither country need give any reason to justify such decisions), and 2) those reasons are simply the propaganda you've heard, not necessarily what actually happened.

> 2) those reasons are simply the propaganda you've heard, not necessarily what actually happened.

It’s declassified documents from the USSR. If you don’t want to believe them in your support for the USSR, who are we supposed to believe?

Re: The 1988 shooting down of Flight 655 as a user interface disaster

#636
post #634

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a weird take. Is it really so hard to put yourself in their shoes? If my country was being attacked and America gave us weapons to fight back I'd also say "god bless America" even though I don't believe in god and I'm very aware of all attrocities America has committed in wars across the globe(and still does). Is that so hard to imagine? >>Not very different from Russia to me. Did you think about this sentence f…

[flagged]

>>Considering the fact that America’s involvement in Ukraine is the reason Ukraine is in the war to start with?

The only side to blame for invading Ukraine is Russia. Literally no one else. That's not to say US hasn't had involvement in Ukrainian politics - I'm sure they did. The responsibility for the invasion still lies 100% with Russia.

Re: The 1988 shooting down of Flight 655 as a user interface disaster

#637

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a weird take. Is it really so hard to put yourself in their shoes? If my country was being attacked and America gave us weapons to fight back I'd also say "god bless America" even though I don't believe in god and I'm very aware of all attrocities America has committed in wars across the globe(and still does). Is that so hard to imagine? >>Not very different from Russia to me. Did you think about this sentence f…

> Is it really so hard to put yourself in their shoes? So was it really hard for him to put himself in the shoes of the people to whom America did what Russia is doing to his country? I guess being in the same situation would make him to better empathize with these peoples. But maybe not. > If my country was being attacked and America gave us weapons to fight back I'd also say "god bless America" even though I don't…

>>So was it really hard for him to put himself in the shoes of the people to whom America did what Russia is doing to his country?

I've literally addressed it. These two are not mutually exclusive. I'm going to be thankful to the country giving me weapons to fight my invader, even if that country is a scumbag too. That shouldn't be difficult concept to grasp. Do you think Ukraine should be like "uhm no thanks US, we don't want your missiles, we're good". What country under active invasion would do that??

>>What would you think if some random Syrian guy wrote "God bless Russia" in a post talking about the Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 which was, allegedly, shot sown by Russian forces in the Dombass?

I have no idea, because I don't see how that's related.

Re: The 1988 shooting down of Flight 655 as a user interface disaster

#638
post #610

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we should not pretend they came out of a vacuum And we shouldn't pretend that organized terrorism is justified by the things you've mentioned.

No, exactly. That is why I wrote "I condemn the terrorist attacks on innocent civilians by Hamas". But my comment was an answer praise of Israel's constraint, like Israel was completely innocent in this conflict. And the following two paragraphs seems to be incomprehensible to many: Israel is an apartheid state. Palestines have the right to resist that oppression. Hamas (or any Palestine organisation) has no right to…

How exactly is Israel an apartheid state?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel

I agree that death of any innocent civilian is regrettable but I question that all Palestinian citizens are innocent. Some of them fully support Hamas and worked with Hamas and for Hamas and would like to see all Jews dead just as much as Hamas and do everything in their power so that nobody can tell apart innocent civilian from a guilty one or from Hamas. I also question who's fault is it that these innocent civilians die. If a murderer is hiding between regular people shooting at cops who hunt him and at the people as well and cops try to stop him and accidentally shoot some of other people as well in the messy situation the blame is heavily on the murderer himself and very slightly on the police who undoubtedly did the right thing, were just a bit bad on technical implementation, though as good as they could be, given the circumstances.

Re: The 1988 shooting down of Flight 655 as a user interface disaster

#639
post #621

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not getting conquered, invaded, or literally colonized is a good thing. Don't you agree? Actually I don't. It depends on the circumstances and the price. Sometimes getting colonized is the best outcome possible. Especially if the alternative is getting wiped out by way stronger opponent. US colonized large part of Mexico. Are people there better or worse because of that?

> Especially if the alternative is getting wiped out by way stronger opponent. That's a personal judgement which fundamentally contradicts the populations' rights to self-determination, i.e. the basis of international law since WWI (famously enshrined by Woodrow Wilson, among others). It's the basis for US support for the independence of Baltic states, Poland, Ukraine, Taiwan, etc - all countries threatened by a "way…

I'm not talking about Native Americans. I'm talking about this https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican%E2%80%93American_War

Are the people who are descendants of the Mexican citizens who survived the ordeal and now are US citizens better off than current Mexican citizens or not?

As for Poland and Baltic states it has nothing to do with any principles. It's about US weakening Russia. If US didn't have a business in that those countries would have zero support for their aspirations for independence. And they wouldn't be better off under the Russian rule because I'm not claiming it's always the case just it's sometimes the case. And only when you are subdued by more civisationally advanced country.

Re: The 1988 shooting down of Flight 655 as a user interface disaster

#640

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not getting conquered, invaded, or literally colonized is a good thing. Don't you agree? Actually I don't. It depends on the circumstances and the price. Sometimes getting colonized is the best outcome possible. Especially if the alternative is getting wiped out by way stronger opponent. US colonized large part of Mexico. Are people there better or worse because of that?

Mhmmm, I get what you are saying. And I even agree on a personal level. But I still think that there is a double standard as to who seems to be allowed to use violence in those cases. It's fine to even disagree with Palestinians, and I also understand that Israel has a right to exist at this point. But the issue is when the west supports fully and unconditionally one side but condemns another for doing the same. It g…

I think Isreal wasn't given free pass ever. And now, only after it suffered worse atrocity ever, its free pass only lasted few weeks for most people. There's a huge disproportion of strength there and it's natural to root for a little guy. But when you look closer at the conflict and motivations of its participants it's easier. Because one side wants to have peace for itself to thrive and the other wants them dead and gone and it's not shy about advertising that intention at any opportunity.

Palestinians have a right to exist and to defend themselves but what they were doing with crude rockets and attacks wasn't a defence. It was an attempt at genocide. And people only fail to recognize it at such because it was so inept due to Israel defensive power.

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