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The 1988 shooting down of Flight 655 as a user interface disaster

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Re: The 1988 shooting down of Flight 655 as a user interface disaster

#371

Post by spacecadet »

dang wrote: post #259
spacecadet wrote: post #105

Had family members on the Aegis design team... I got another UI disaster... y'all had a chance to end this insane twitter thread UX and you chose to continue it. Why on earth do people post content like this... how much effort do you want me to put in? all that extra energy clicking, making requests...

" Please don't complain about tangential annoyances—e.g. article or website formats, name collisions, or back-button breakage. They're too common to be interesting. " https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html (What would be interesting is hearing more about the Aegis design team, if you want to share)

Nice try, but my complaint illustrates the issue. Im not complaining about white button text, Im complaining about the awful UX of "twitter threads", which all of the twitter clones seem to have blindly adopted, instead of taking the opportunity to improve on it.

Re: The 1988 shooting down of Flight 655 as a user interface disaster

#372

Post by r2_pilot »

naasking wrote: post #334
nova22033 wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

international waters near New York City, everyone would be totally chill with that right? I don't know why you think this is a gotcha...The USN would probably sniff around but that's it..They're international waters

Yes, but it's also Iran . What you're not getting is the "mortal enemy moving a war machine right at your gates" bit.

What you are failing to comprehend is that the United States has a policy of enforcing international naval freedom, and routinely transits international waters near many nations. The US has no issue with any vessel's location in international waters, regardless of what nation.

Re: The 1988 shooting down of Flight 655 as a user interface disaster

#373

Post by georgehotelling »

rglullis wrote: post #30

Aside: it is the second day in a row that a thread from Mastodon ends up on the frontpage of HN. When was the last time I Twitter thread did the same, and does anyone else doubts that Twitter is no longer at the center of tech-related conversation?

One difference is that Twitter no longer shows threads to logged-out users, while Mastodon does. If someone posted the same thread to both sites, the Mastodon one would be better to link to.

Re: The 1988 shooting down of Flight 655 as a user interface disaster

#374

Post by hn8305823 »

MichaelZuo wrote: post #291
quietbritishjim wrote: post #204

Another good write up of this incident is on the excellent Admiral Cloudberg blog: https://admiralcloudberg.medium.com/the-long-shadow-of-war-t... Another article in that series is also related to a UX mistake: Air France Flight 447. This crashed, in part, because the inputs from two control sticks (one for pilot and other for copilot) were averaged if they disagreed, unlike on a Boeing (at the time at least) where t…

It's not something that can be changed on airbus cockpits, since the nature of side sticks makes them impossible to be mechanically linked, unless there was some very complex motor system built into each stick that provided force feedback equal in strength to a pilot tugging hard on it.

The Cirrus SR-22 (the best selling general aviation plane every year since 2003) has mechanically linked side sticks. They aren't fly by wire like the Airbus but it shows they can be linked without a complex motor system.

Re: The 1988 shooting down of Flight 655 as a user interface disaster

#375

Post by AdamN »

knallfrosch wrote: post #360
kortilla wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They were in wartime, you answered your own question. >I image "UX error" wouldn't cut it if a chinese missile cruiser shot down an US airliner while steaming up the Hudson. Yes, that would be up for debate if the US were in an active war with China.

Iran was at war with Iraq, not the US with Iran.

The US and Iran had been in a cold war since 1979 with flareups the entire time all the way through to the current day.

Re: The 1988 shooting down of Flight 655 as a user interface disaster

#376

Post by klibertp »

dataworm wrote: post #362
klibertp wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somehow, not all soldiers fighting for Germany were monsters, but > russian soldiers are evil nazis, not normal people. Russian soldiers are. These are your words from upthread. Why is Russian army staffed by "evil nazis" exclusively, while actual Nazi army... wasn't?

> Why is Russian army staffed by "evil nazis" exclusively, while actual Nazi army... wasn't? What do you mean by 'actual'? Just because the russian ruling party aren't calling themselves National-Socialists doesn't mean they aren't 'actual' nazis. Search for "rashism". russia is even more evil than Nazi Germany because Germany had one very bad episode in 1933-1945, while russia has been committing atrocities, oppress…

> What do you mean by 'actual'?

I mean the historical Nazis from WW2. Again: you admitted that not all Wehrmacht soldiers were evil, monsters, or even Nazis (other than nominally). But, in your words, all soldiers fighting for the Russian Federation right now in their aggression on Ukraine - are all bad people.

I'm asking, why do you agree to cut some slack for the former but are unwilling to do so for the latter?

Other than the latter being involved with you, personally, destroying your country and killing your people right now - of course. My grandpa lost 5 of his siblings to Germans in WW2 - they were civilians, killed because his uncle was a butcher, and happened to have a knife with him when they met German soldiers. It made him hate Germans, all of them, no exceptions, and I'm not surprised it turned out like that. He kept this hatred (only second to his hatred of Jews) to the very end of his life, and that's understandable, but it was irrational. I don't believe some Hans or Johann deserves to be hated 70 years later because of what happened back then. Similarly, dehumanizing and demonizing the whole Russian military (EDIT: or even the whole nation), including those poor convicts that supposedly die in droves as fodder for "human wave" tactics, is not rational now. I understand that hatred can be an emotional support for affected individuals, but it doesn't help the situation; instead, it makes it worse.

Re: The 1988 shooting down of Flight 655 as a user interface disaster

#377

Post by wil421 »

smcl wrote: post #239

> they saw this contact heading towards them labeled as an F-14 fighter. What's wild to me is the assumption that Iran would suddenly launch a single F-14 fighter to attack a ship. Was there no moment where they thought "maybe there has been a mistake?" - like where Stanislav Petrov chose to interpret the Soviet early warning system telling him an ICBM was incoming as being a result of some faulty instruments. Grante…

Iraq attacked the USS Stark a year before. They used a business jet with an Exocet missile attached to it. This was by mistake but it still happened.

A single plane shooting down a ship is not unheard of but the US has done it in pairs to the whole Iran navy.

Re: The 1988 shooting down of Flight 655 as a user interface disaster

#378

Post by toyg »

raxxorraxor wrote: post #211
toyg wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those answers are preposterous and your argument is laughable. This is indeed a "both sides" issue, because otherwise it wouldn't have remained a hot conflict after 70 years. There are legitimate and now multi-generational grievances on both sides, that are really difficult to recompose. You can't engage with simplistic attitudes if you want to be intellectually honest.

You don't like the argument because you know it to be true. The exception is the settlements in the West Bank, but those began after extremism in Israel rose considerably. That is a severe problem, but if people excuse terrorism as resistance, the same would apply here.

As others mentioned, your argument is fundamentally contradicted by facts.

The problem is that, without serious ideological engagement, neither side will ever stop. The current state of play is the failure of the non-solution that is "Two States", aka "Israel and bantustans". Bantustans have historically been unsustainable for any government that tried to implement them.

Re: The 1988 shooting down of Flight 655 as a user interface disaster

#379

Post by quietbritishjim »

quench wrote: post #368
quietbritishjim wrote: post #204

Another good write up of this incident is on the excellent Admiral Cloudberg blog: https://admiralcloudberg.medium.com/the-long-shadow-of-war-t... Another article in that series is also related to a UX mistake: Air France Flight 447. This crashed, in part, because the inputs from two control sticks (one for pilot and other for copilot) were averaged if they disagreed, unlike on a Boeing (at the time at least) where t…

>unlike on a Boeing (at the time at least) where they're physically connected so you can't have contradictory inputs in the first place Air France seemed to manage it https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/air-france-crew-fought-e... Also glad to see that airbus are planning to put force feedback side-sticks in future.

> Air France seemed to manage it [on a Boeing]

Hence my "at the time" bracket. Since then, newer Boeing planes have actually removed the physical connection between the sticks! Absolutely bonkers decision given the background. (I put "at least" at the end of my bracket because I wasn't 100% sure I rememebered correctly.) But maybe there is a good reason - e.g. like a sibling comment suggested, if one gets stuck.

Re: The 1988 shooting down of Flight 655 as a user interface disaster

#380

Post by mopsi »

klibertp wrote: post #302
dataworm wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There really isn't more to the story. russia has been oppressing and killing Ukrainians since the creation of the russian empire. They have only stopped for a brief period after the fall of the USSR. You are claiming there are no nazis. So Nazi Germany was fiction? russians are nazis, just look on the internet. Monsters do exist - war criminals, mass murderers, brutal dictators. Not all people are regular humans and…

> Where did you get this unicorns pooping rainbows bullshit? It's called "humanism," and it's not bullshit. It mostly says that killing people is wrong. Of course, you think otherwise, so it might seem like bullshit to you. EDIT: > So Nazi Germany was fiction? No. The notion that all soldiers fighting on the Germany side in WW2 were monsters is, however. If the world subscribed to your ideology, there'd be a catacomb…

> No. The notion that all soldiers fighting on the Germany side in WW2 were monsters is, however. If the world subscribed to your ideology, there'd be a catacomb of millions buried under Nurnberg (there's no such thing, if you wondered).

This is known as "the clean Wehrmacht myth", a belief that somehow, somewhere in the German military, there were units that did not have the blood of innocents on their hands. At least in Germany, that myth was shattered by an influential exhibition in the 1990s that showcased photos explicitly selected to display atrocities that were not committed by special squads in death camps hidden away in the woods, but out in the public, by regular units, on the streets and roads of cities and villages across Europe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_clean_Wehrmacht

And despite that, there indeed is no catacomb beneath Nürnberg. Virtually all German war criminals received no punishment whatsoever. Out of millions of people involved in the extermination of Jews and other crimes against peoples on occupied territories, only 6656 were ever convicted in Germany, and the vast majority received a sentence of 2 years of imprisonment or less. Only 164 were convicted of murder, yet millions had died. https://www.timesofisrael.com/historian-examines-germanys-mi...

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