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Shutting down the Matrix bridge to Libera chat

matrix.org

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Re: Shutting down the Matrix bridge to Libera chat

#141

Post by Zetobal »

joshsimmons wrote: post #133
Zetobal wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Drop it. After all the shit they pulled last year (no oss server code anymore, killing bridges, bugged clients) and hiring a PR person you just know they are going for entshitification. I wonder if they will recognize that their commercial offerings are just not up to spec.

Check your facts. Matrix remains an open protocol, under open source license, with open governance, stewarded by a nonprofit. And there remain multiple open source server implementations and clients. As useful as Cory Doctorow's concept of enshittification is, it has absolutely no utility in describing what is happening here. Nobody is being locked in, the user experience is incrementally improving as the spec and th…

The PR person is here... next time at least tell everyone who you are.

Actions speak loader than PR babble especially if it's not addressing the mentioned concerns.

Re: Shutting down the Matrix bridge to Libera chat

#142

Post by wkat4242 »

immibis wrote: post #112
georgyo wrote: post #52

After the deportling, I just stopped communicating with IRC, but there is a lot of lost there. One of my communities was basically split in half. Ah well... The user drop is quite noticable here: https://netsplit.de/networks/top10.php After that you can see Libre.Chat is actually growing in users again and at a very consistent pace.

How many of the users were not permanently AFK?

Probably not so many because the bridge already pruned puppeted users that were inactive.

Re: Shutting down the Matrix bridge to Libera chat

#143

Post by wkat4242 »

Zetobal wrote: post #141
joshsimmons wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Check your facts. Matrix remains an open protocol, under open source license, with open governance, stewarded by a nonprofit. And there remain multiple open source server implementations and clients. As useful as Cory Doctorow's concept of enshittification is, it has absolutely no utility in describing what is happening here. Nobody is being locked in, the user experience is incrementally improving as the spec and th…

The PR person is here... next time at least tell everyone who you are. Actions speak loader than PR babble especially if it's not addressing the mentioned concerns.

They did reveal that in an earlier post only 3 above this one, to be fair. It would get a bit tedious adding a disclaimer to every comment.

Re: Shutting down the Matrix bridge to Libera chat

#144

Post by wkat4242 »

Arathorn wrote: post #126
snvzz wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds serious, from an IRC perspective.

The issue in question here is https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-appservice-irc/issues/1... (and https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-appservice-irc/pull/133... ) which accidentally regressed due to other stability work done for Libera (specifically, keeping the IRC-side connections persistent, rather than reconnecting when the bridge starts). As a result there was an race condition edge case where users on the Mat…

That these issues haven't seen as much as even a reply since 2021 makes me understand Libera's point a lot better to be honest. Because it is indeed a serious issue.

Re: Shutting down the Matrix bridge to Libera chat

#146

Post by wkat4242 »

NewJazz wrote: post #78
Syonyk wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not really the same thing, as far as I'm concerned. I use both Matrix and IRC, very extensively. Matrix is, for me, a replacement (or a slightly less annoying way) to handle "person to person and local group" communications. And the bridges beat having to run a bunch of other clients for Google Chat, Signal, etc. However, my goal there is to move people onto Matrix, and I've done a decent job of it so far in my…

I agree they are very different beasts. Which is probably why IRC has held its ground despite strong headwinds. I question whether the Matrix team even wants to eclipse IRC. It probably won't earn them many beans. IRC is "professional technical chatter during work hours," and I use it as such - as I've used it for the bulk of three decades at this point. Indeed and the clients and servers certainly treat it as such.…

You raise an interesting point. It's currently really hard to maintain multiple identities on the matrix network.

I was thinking of making a matrix to matrix bridge so I could do that but I never really got around to it.

Re: Shutting down the Matrix bridge to Libera chat

#147

Post by wkat4242 »

sitzkrieg wrote: post #22
mlyle wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IRC's biggest weakness is the lack of a consistent history mechanism and that you usually need to idle.

things like irccloud made this easier for consumers this but it was too late

As does quassel <3

Re: Shutting down the Matrix bridge to Libera chat

#148

Post by [deleted] »

joshsimmons wrote: post #43
jmbwell wrote: post #14

This seems like an inevitable progression of the de-portaling in July: https://matrix.org/blog/2023/07/deportalling-libera-chat/ I wonder whether the July move prompted users to find other ways to connect to Libera.chat besides Matrix, killing usage of the bridge, leading us here. Thanks to those involved for the efforts while they could be sustained!

I suspect many people _did_ find other ways to connect (indeed I fired my IRC Cloud subscription back up...), but that's not what ultimately brought us* to this decision. Really it came down to not having the funds or staff time to maintain and operate it to the level that was needed. Echoing you, I am likewise really grateful for all the people who worked on it while it was doable! * Speaking on behalf of the Matrix…

[deleted]

Re: Shutting down the Matrix bridge to Libera chat

#149

Post by Zetobal »

joshsimmons wrote: post #131
immibis wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Matrix, at this point, is effectively proprietary. It's fully controlled by one for-profit company (Element) and the blockchain protocol (yes, it uses a blockchain) is complicated enough to prevent independent reimplementations. And it doesn't even work that well.

As the Managing Director of the Matrix.org Foundation it is expected that I conduct myself with some level of decorum. So, exercising all due restraint, I say this: your statement is unmoored from reality. I thank @camgunz for chiming in and citing sources.

Ridiculous. You joined a mere 6 months ago you didn't have any say in the decisions you are trying to defend now. You aren't even defending them you are just babbling and more emberassing playing personal attacked while deflecting. Matrix is dying and element killed it. Good riddance. I knew the stories were too good to be true but turns out you are just as corp as every other hired gun. There is a reason why they put a community manager in charge of matrix.

Tell us why your spec trails your implementation for months so you basically make sure no one can develop competing server/clients.

Re: Shutting down the Matrix bridge to Libera chat

#150

Post by Arathorn »

k8svet wrote: post #103

I'm so incredibly conflicted about whether to keep investing time and energy and hope around Matrix. I normally have good tech intuition and matrix is in this weird spot. I think the vision and direction and attitudes are amazing but they keep fking up badly. I'm embarrassed at the thought that I would "soon" soft nudge my friends and family to matrix, years ago . With the state of synapse, matrix.org, and the projec…

> with the state of synapse, matrix.org, and the project in general, I wouldn't consider trying that for another 12-18 months. Or more.

Synapse is very stable these days, and relatively resource efficient. Matrix.org (both the server, website, spec and foundation) is in a good place too, as is (from my biased pov as project lead) the project in general.

> This is a huge "oopsie" to put it nicely

We simply don't have the people to do a good job of maintaining the Libera bridge. We tried to jump forwards on it with persistent connections to improve the experience on the Libera side; this caused a tonne of instability; we couldn't move back (given it would have also been seen as a backwards step); we didn't have the manpower to fix it rapidly either; so this is not remotely our preferred outcome. We ran the bridge for almost 8 years; it wasn't perfect; it wasn't a total disaster either; but in the end we overstretched ourselves and Libera pulled the plug.

> It feels like a massive loss for matrix (bad first impressions, negative impact on network effects, etc) and will undoubtedly be something that matrix detractors will point to for years.

Matrix has around 5M native active users based on the phonehome stats, of which ~22k were using the libera bridge. I agree that it's awful for early adopter geeks who love IRC, and I despair that it has happened. But I don't think the sky is falling either.

> Element X has been pleasantly satisfying lately. I'm curious if the team is deliberately taking a different strategy.

Yes, it's a very different strategy. Element isn't working on the legacy mobile apps at all any more (other than for security updates), and rather than being spread too thin over too many projects and codebases (Element Web, Element iOS & Element Android all had zero code in common other than libolm) instead the intention is for Element to focus on one primary codebase (matrix-rust-sdk + Element X and Element Web 'R') and nail it. Meanwhile we don't have the manpower to do a good job of other projects (e.g. Libera bridge, P2P Matrix, Third Room etc.) and so they are on hold for now.

I agree that with 20:20 hindsight this hasn't been the most efficient route to get to where we are today.

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