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Backlash over fake female speakers shuts down developer conference

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Re: Backlash over fake female speakers shuts down developer conference

#61
post #55
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi, I'm the forum admin who banned Sizovs for suckpuppeting a few years ago: https://lobste.rs/s/s67tjc/don_t_learn_too_many_things#c_nfn... I know this is pure whataboutism ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism ), but I don't have any duty to keep the secrets of sockpuppeting spammers; the forum privacy policy is short and unambiguous. No members have expressed concerns over me banning his accounts in 2019, i…

Your privacy policy or lack of thereof does not override the duties set to you by legislation such as GDPR.

GDPR very specifically has a public interest/journalist exemption which would obviously fall under this scenario given that this was for the sake of uncovering fraud being committed by an individual.

Re: Backlash over fake female speakers shuts down developer conference

#62
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I ran a workshop a few years back, and some female speakers wrote to me (collectively) to ask that I include more women, along with suggested names. Given that in academia there is already probably pro-female bias in hiring, I think this was bad, and in retrospect I should not have accepted it.

I have to read a lot between the lines here so correct me if I misunderstand what happened. You ran a workshop, in the academic field, which tends to hire more women than men these days (your words). Your workshop still managed to be male dominated, despite being in a female-dominated field, and women complained about that?

> which tends to hire more women than men these days (your words)

They said there was a "pro-female bias in hiring", which does not necessarily mean it's a female-dominated field. In fact, it's often the male-dominated fields that have pro-female bias because there is often a desire to increase the female ratio.

Re: Backlash over fake female speakers shuts down developer conference

#63
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So we are all missing the point that the organizer LIED around and he's being rightfully punished for that?

No, I don't think people are, at large, missing the point. I think there is some more reflecting to do about the article in that pretty much points out the lengths people are going to go so they can conform to the CURRENT_THING. Almost like virtue signaling is actually a thing.

Weird that he was willing go to the lengths of “inventing fake women speakers”, but not willing to go the much shorter lengths of “inviting real women to speak”.

Re: Backlash over fake female speakers shuts down developer conference

#64

I understand why people want to talk at conference that have a diverse array of speakers. However, the fact there is an extreme shortage of a specific gender shouldn't really fall on conference organisers. One conference that was blasted for only having one or two women speakers was organised by a women who pointed out that every women who applied got to speak. It's got to the point from what I've noticed from confer…

This was a conference where people don’t apply to speak, you only got to speak by invitation. So that excuse doesn’t work here.

Re: Backlash over fake female speakers shuts down developer conference

#65
post #5

So they got what they wanted. A store is inclusive because everyone can enter it. A conference is inclusive only if you drag every type of person in by force, faking it if it didn’t work out. “Otherwise it’s not inclusive and I’m not participating”. Isn’t that pure nonsense.

> A store is inclusive because everyone can enter it. Just the ability to enter isn't what makes up inclusivity, especially for a conference. It's about being as included, welcome and accommodated for as another group. I remember an anecdote from a recent Kate Gregory (iirc) talk about the early days of C++ conferences, where it turned out the organizers just didn't think about renting woman's toilets, only men's toi…

How do you only rent 'mens' toilets?

Port-a-potties usually aren't labeled, unless they are just urinals.

Did the conference centers lock out the 'women' toilets?

Most conference centers that I have been to don't have access doors to the restrooms, it is a u shaped freeflow walk in. This removes the bottleneck and cuts the cost of a door.

Re: Backlash over fake female speakers shuts down developer conference

#66
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your privacy policy or lack of thereof does not override the duties set to you by legislation such as GDPR.

GDPR very specifically has a public interest/journalist exemption which would obviously fall under this scenario given that this was for the sake of uncovering fraud being committed by an individual.

I believe this is the relevant text, from https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg/2016/679 :

> Member States law should reconcile the rules governing freedom of expression and information, including journalistic, academic, artistic and or literary expression with the right to the protection of personal data pursuant to this Regulation. The processing of personal data solely for journalistic purposes, ... should be subject to derogations or exemptions from certain provisions of this Regulation if necessary to reconcile the right to the protection of personal data with the right to freedom of expression and information, as enshrined in Article 11 of the Charter. .. In order to take account of the importance of the right to freedom of expression in every democratic society, it is necessary to interpret notions relating to that freedom, such as journalism, broadly.

Re: Backlash over fake female speakers shuts down developer conference

#67
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I ran a workshop a few years back, and some female speakers wrote to me (collectively) to ask that I include more women, along with suggested names. Given that in academia there is already probably pro-female bias in hiring, I think this was bad, and in retrospect I should not have accepted it.

I have to read a lot between the lines here so correct me if I misunderstand what happened. You ran a workshop, in the academic field, which tends to hire more women than men these days (your words). Your workshop still managed to be male dominated, despite being in a female-dominated field, and women complained about that?

Academia is still male dominated in many fields by a wide margin but the latest hiring may be heavily biased towards female and yet it has not made a significant dent (my interpretation).

Re: Backlash over fake female speakers shuts down developer conference

#68

I understand why people want to talk at conference that have a diverse array of speakers. However, the fact there is an extreme shortage of a specific gender shouldn't really fall on conference organisers. One conference that was blasted for only having one or two women speakers was organised by a women who pointed out that every women who applied got to speak. It's got to the point from what I've noticed from confer…

Is there an extreme shortage? Or is there an extreme shortage of women who applies to speak because they're not used to seeing many women speak and assume they wouldn't get a slot? I genuinely don't know, but I have met enough women in tech with speaking experience as a total introvert that I do find it astounding that someone making a living of arranging events don't have a sufficient network to be able to line up some women as speakers. Makes it very hard to think this doesn't reflect their attitudes.

> It's got to the point from what I've noticed from conference organisers talking on Twitter/X in the past the only way they can get women speakers in a decent amount is for them to approach women who don't give talks and invite them to talk.

Then they should do that. As a man, of the times I've been speaking in public-ish contexts in my life, I've volunteered or applied less than half. I'm not at all surprised it takes work to line up speakers, and more work to line up speakers of any group that has a history of being underrepresented in this field.

If you expect every speaker you sign up to be drawn from applicants, it's also not just diversity you throw over-board, but you lose out on a whole lot of perspectives from people who for other reasons aren't really that interested in speaking, or are too busy with other things, but who might be willing to if asked.

> That is a bit worrying since anyone who has given a talk will know, your first time is completely terrible.

The way to fix that is to ensure more women get a first chance to hold a talk. If they don't want that to be at their conference, then try to work with user groups and the like to find women who have held talks there, or arrange events to provide a feed. Once is understandable - people may well not realize what is needed to fix the problem. But if they then don't act, or if they lie and deceive people about it, it's another matter.

This reminds me of when my ex worked for a major investment bank where she as a black woman was promptly put on a "diversity board" to figure out how they could fix their diversity without actually changing the one thing that made fixing their diversity impossible: They heavily weighed in their hiring candidates from certain schools which skewed significantly white and male, to the point that even if they hired every black person and every female from those schools entire graduating classes, they'd still have a diversity problem. They did not want to hear that. They wanted nice quotes for their website and some token photos (and eventually got a significant bill for settling employment law cases instead)

The point is that if you genuinely want to address diversity, and your applicant pool isn't diverse, then you need to look beyond your applicant pool. If you choose not to, then you don't really care about addressing diversity; in that case, you're just trying to do enough to be able to throw your hands up, and it's in that case entirely fair for people to judge the organizers accordingly.

Re: Backlash over fake female speakers shuts down developer conference

#69

> "To spell it out why this conference generated fake women speakers," Orosz alleges, it was "because the organizer wants big names and it probably seemed like an easy way to address their diversity concerns. Incredibly lazy." Well this is what you get if you impose such artificial requirements like forced diversity. Edit: People are offended like if there aren't any other groups of people who base their business mod…

No, this is what you get if someones response to speakers making a choice about the kind of events they want to speak at is fraud instead of addressing the concerns in an honest way.

He has no inherent right to expect speakers to speak at his event. It doesn't matter if they expect a diverse lineup or a bowl of M&M's with all the brown ones picked out - he has the choice of complying with their requirements or finding someone else.

Or, I guess, resorting to lies and deceit and getting called out for it.

Re: Backlash over fake female speakers shuts down developer conference

#70
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GDPR very specifically has a public interest/journalist exemption which would obviously fall under this scenario given that this was for the sake of uncovering fraud being committed by an individual.

I believe this is the relevant text, from https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg/2016/679 : > Member States law should reconcile the rules governing freedom of expression and information, including journalistic, academic, artistic and or literary expression with the right to the protection of personal data pursuant to this Regulation. The processing of personal data solely for journalistic purposes, ... should be subject…

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