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The 1988 shooting down of Flight 655 as a user interface disaster

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Re: The 1988 shooting down of Flight 655 as a user interface disaster

#61
post #46

I first thought this was a post about flat design, then went and read the whole toot. Man, who'd expect UI to be bad enough for life and death operations. Someone should post more details about the actually confusing UI that lead to this event. Would be a good lesson to most of us. It also appears that Lockheed won a contract for using this system in 2023 [1]. Can someone share if they actually fixed the UI issues wi…

I thought it was about Chrome's new sidebar by just reading the title.

Re: The 1988 shooting down of Flight 655 as a user interface disaster

#62

Aside: it is the second day in a row that a thread from Mastodon ends up on the frontpage of HN. When was the last time I Twitter thread did the same, and does anyone else doubts that Twitter is no longer at the center of tech-related conversation?

What you are experiencing is a great example of confirmation bias.

Re: The 1988 shooting down of Flight 655 as a user interface disaster

#63
post #52
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NATO bombing of serbian power stations was done in response of Serbian ethnic cleansing in Kosovo, after the horrible crimes against humanity perpetrated by serbian forces in Bosnia. "russians doing the same" is a blatant lie. What the russians are doing is a genocide.

Russia's invasion of Ukraine is pretty low on civ casualties. Look at Gaza, or the Iraq/Vietnam invasions compare numbers (civ casualties AND time it took) and then draw conclusions on the use of the word genocide. I also would abstain from using "russians" (or USAers, or Israelis) when referring to actions of the respective govts. Keeps the discussion cleaner of generalizations wrt people that may totally not suppor…

Russia’s invasion of Ukraine currently suffers from severe undercount.

The RF forces sieged Mariopol like a medieval city at the start of the war, creating large scale suffering. Afaik there was no water or power and people were melting ice for water.

The civilian casualties on the Ukraine war are at least 100,000+ maybe a multiple of that number.

Re: The 1988 shooting down of Flight 655 as a user interface disaster

#64

Everything's possible, but there would be no debate about UI mistakes if it was Iran shooting down a US plane. They would've done because they are evil by nature, or at least perceived as such. In that case the media and the public buys into its own reality, but of course the UI discussion could be a distraction from the public maybe starting to question if that's actually the reality. Also from the Wiki page about t…

Except the Soviets had visual confirmation of the target Vincennes did not (which to be fair should have done - and not excusing their actions here)

That's a good point, why didn't they seek visual confirmation first?

Re: The 1988 shooting down of Flight 655 as a user interface disaster

#65
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Luckily, this one will have less dire consequences.

[flagged]

Less dire direct consequences then. If we go down this path, I'm sure there must be other UIs that have much higher use that the one in the article that might have even worse impact at scale. Or even niche use (but more users) in critical (medical…) systems.

Re: The 1988 shooting down of Flight 655 as a user interface disaster

#66

I'm so conflicted reading this story. On one hand, yes, there were choices made during the design of the system that directly contributed to this tragedy. And a lot of innocent lives were lost, so saying that's "shit happens, it's an edge case" rings very hollow. On the other hand, this was a very peculiar set of circumstances, very much an edge case. Is it reasonable to expect designers of combat systems to triple c…

> However, I think it's unreasonable to expect them to design a perfect system for a highly volatile and chaotic use case such as war. When it comes to safety-critical systems, the right engineering choice is to lean towards a 'safe' default. For example, the safe default would be to always slave the cursor: > Once "hooked," the contact would be tracked by Aegis. But critically, unless the operator took the additiona…

> the safe default would be to always slave the cursor

I don't think so, I imagine that behavior could be frustrating, e.g. if you're cursoring over many contacts. Admittedly I am not an expert either, but that suggestion smells like a classic case of armchair design that would actually cause more problems, because I imagine that the two modes exist for a reason and the designers intentionally chose which default to use, but they didn't anticipate this user error.

Thus, I'd suggest that the UI should have made it extremely obvious whether the cursor was slaved and when a contact gets hooked/unhooked under the cursor.

If I had to make an analogy, I'd compare it to normal and insert mode in Vi(m). The fact that the default is normal mode actually makes sense even though new users may suggest otherwise, but the real problem is that by default it's hard to tell which mode you are in.

Re: The 1988 shooting down of Flight 655 as a user interface disaster

#67
post #37

Pro-tip to those unused to mastodon web-ui: you can click the eye on the top right of the center column (next to Back) to expand all posts at once.

How ironic, a post about a user interface disaster needing an explanatory pro-tip for its UI.

That's objectively terrible UX.

Re: The 1988 shooting down of Flight 655 as a user interface disaster

#68
post #52
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NATO bombing of serbian power stations was done in response of Serbian ethnic cleansing in Kosovo, after the horrible crimes against humanity perpetrated by serbian forces in Bosnia. "russians doing the same" is a blatant lie. What the russians are doing is a genocide.

Russia's invasion of Ukraine is pretty low on civ casualties. Look at Gaza, or the Iraq/Vietnam invasions compare numbers (civ casualties AND time it took) and then draw conclusions on the use of the word genocide. I also would abstain from using "russians" (or USAers, or Israelis) when referring to actions of the respective govts. Keeps the discussion cleaner of generalizations wrt people that may totally not suppor…

I am sorry but Genocide is not about actually killing people, it is about "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group", which includes "killing members of the group, causing them serious bodily or mental harm, imposing living conditions intended to destroy the group, preventing births, and forcibly transferring children out of the group" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide)

Russia is doing textbook genocide by "reeducating" ukrainians childrens: https://press.un.org/en/2023/sc15395.doc.htm

> Russian Federation agents have taken at least 19,546 children to that country from Ukraine since 18 February 2022. Among other violations, Russian Federation citizenship is imposed on them, and they are forbidden to speak and learn the Ukrainian language or preserve their Ukrainian identity

Re: The 1988 shooting down of Flight 655 as a user interface disaster

#69

Aside: it is the second day in a row that a thread from Mastodon ends up on the frontpage of HN. When was the last time I Twitter thread did the same, and does anyone else doubts that Twitter is no longer at the center of tech-related conversation?

I'm just glad to see the entire thread of conversation without having to switch to nitter or whatever.

Re: The 1988 shooting down of Flight 655 as a user interface disaster

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, I think it's unreasonable to expect them to design a perfect system for a highly volatile and chaotic use case such as war. When it comes to safety-critical systems, the right engineering choice is to lean towards a 'safe' default. For example, the safe default would be to always slave the cursor: > Once "hooked," the contact would be tracked by Aegis. But critically, unless the operator took the additiona…

> the safe default would be to always slave the cursor I don't think so, I imagine that behavior could be frustrating, e.g. if you're cursoring over many contacts. Admittedly I am not an expert either, but that suggestion smells like a classic case of armchair design that would actually cause more problems, because I imagine that the two modes exist for a reason and the designers intentionally chose which default to…

It might help to read the incident further.

> The next aircraft taking off on that runway was an Iranian military F-14 fighter. The cursor was only left on the runway for around 90 seconds, but that was long enough for the Vincennes to get an IFF response corresponding to a military fighter. So Flight 655 was reclassified from an unknown contact to a potentially hostile one.

The default was that the automated system conflated two completely distinct aircraft. The IFF ("identification friend or foe") for a military aircraft was attributed to a civilian airliner

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