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The camel, the rope, and the needle's eye

kiwihellenist.blogspot.com

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Re: The camel, the rope, and the needle's eye

#81

Post by deadbabe »

Nition wrote: post #70

This is a bit of a meta-comment but, there are a great deal of of comments in this thread that say something that's already covered in the article. I've noticed that Hacker News comments do seem to be trending more over time to being from people who only read the title, or at best only skimmed the article. If you go straight to the comments on any news post on Reddit, the discussions usually seem relatively insightfu…

Comments are at least more guaranteed to be human, articles could be AI summary garbage.

Re: The camel, the rope, and the needle's eye

#82

Post by Nition »

doublerabbit wrote: post #72
Nition wrote: post #70

This is a bit of a meta-comment but, there are a great deal of of comments in this thread that say something that's already covered in the article. I've noticed that Hacker News comments do seem to be trending more over time to being from people who only read the title, or at best only skimmed the article. If you go straight to the comments on any news post on Reddit, the discussions usually seem relatively insightfu…

I'm guilty. I'm just here for the comments. I tend to learn more about the subject that way. And if I find the comments confusing I'll then jump to the article. Partly due to the popup spam on any major media outlet site, even wikipedia with its constant nagging for donations. Downvotes: Not sure why some HN readers are upset by this comment, I don't have time to read every article or to skim. Especially at work. Rea…

Honestly I think going straight to the comments is totally fine, as long as you read the article (or at least skim it, please) before posting your own top-level comment. I'm not sure why you're downvoted either really, because you're not doing any harm by just reading them.

However, your method does become less useful if the comments that people do post become increasing divorced from the article! Sometimes on Reddit people almost create their own alternate reality in the comments based only on the title. When we only read the comments we end up living in that reality.

Re: The camel, the rope, and the needle's eye

#83

Post by Nition »

deadbabe wrote: post #81
Nition wrote: post #70

This is a bit of a meta-comment but, there are a great deal of of comments in this thread that say something that's already covered in the article. I've noticed that Hacker News comments do seem to be trending more over time to being from people who only read the title, or at best only skimmed the article. If you go straight to the comments on any news post on Reddit, the discussions usually seem relatively insightfu…

Comments are at least more guaranteed to be human, articles could be AI summary garbage.

This article is quite the opposite of that though, and has done a lot of work covering most of the points that are being made in the comments here anyway. The Aramaic words, the similar verse in the Quran, the rope being "still impossible" etc, are all covered in the article.

Re: The camel, the rope, and the needle's eye

#84

Post by 542458 »

tines wrote: post #14
OscarCunningham wrote: post #11

I've never really understood the sentences following this quote. > '[…] It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.' They were greatly astounded and said to one another, 'Then who can be saved?' Jesus looked at them and said, 'For mortals it is impossible, but not for God; for God all things are possible.' Why do the apostles seem to think that…

Because it was thought that being rich meant you were close to God. If the people they thought were closest to God could scarcely be saved, then how could anyone else be? So the thinking goes. It's an argument a fortiori. Of course Jesus' point was that the poor and sinners are much closer to the kingdom of God than the rich, hence their astonishment.

Yes, this is a major point in the gospels and one of the things that was subversive at the time that's a bit lost on modern audiences. At the time, the prevailing belief was that good things happens to good people, and bad things happen to bad people. This is illustrated in John 9, where the disciples ask Jesus about a blind man:

His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”

This is why Jesus going around healing the blind and lepers was significant and a bit shocking: those were supposed to be the bad people, and if their state was punishment for their evil why would you go and help them? But the gospel message is that we all do bad things, and judged on our own merits we all fall short of goodness. But there is grace, and by grace the bad things we do can be put away.

Re: The camel, the rope, and the needle's eye

#85

Post by DebtDeflation »

Zanni wrote: post #75
ranprieur wrote: post #24

I don't buy the idea that changing camel to rope is about pleasing rich people, because a rope can still nowhere near get through the eye of a needle. But a rope is qualitatively the same kind of thing as a thread; so if camel is the right word, the message is that what gets into the kingdom of God is a whole different kind of thing than money.

Rope and needle are close enough in scale that passing the one through the other is merely improbable. Consider a thin rope and a large needle, for example. You could also unbraid a rope and pass it through a needle, strand by strand, and reconstruct it on the other "side." Much harder to do with a camel.

Except that the rope in question here is a "seafaring" rope used by sailors. If you're familiar with nautical rope, it has no more possibility of passing through the eye of even the largest sail needle than a camel does.

Re: The camel, the rope, and the needle's eye

#86

Post by Galacta7 »

monlockandkey wrote: post #78
Galacta7 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I perhaps agree in principle, I think it's also fair to say that while Islam isn't strictly based on Christianity or Judaism, it was strongly influenced by both, to the extent that the Qu'ran borrows quite a bit from the New Testament, which in turn borrows heavily from the Hebrew Bible. The overlap is not accidental, but rather intentional in order to provide a sense of credibility in their teachings. In that…

The Qur'an didn't borrow anything, nor was it influenced by the previous religions. The Qur'an is a revelation from God, as was the original Torah to Moses and the Injeel to Jesus. The same accounts of history and messages would be told to the prophets from God. The claim where Muhammad ﷺ copied from the previous books is simply not possible. An unlettered man narrating and correcting the histories/traditions of the…

I appreciate your thoughtful reply, and accept it in cordiality! :) And I hope you will accept my replies in the same kindly spirit.

I think perhaps I inadvertently implied that the Qur'an was copied from earlier sacred texts, when I only meant that it was likely influenced by them ... in the same way that the New Testament was strongly influenced by the Hebrew Bible (in some cases referencing portions directly - especially regarding prophetic literature, but in other ways making very different claims). Where I agree with you is that it's simplistic to say that Islam was simply a distant branch of another religion -- it's clearly it's own tradition, but my understanding is that most Muslims would agree that it both shares common roots (i.e. a foundational understanding) with Christianity and Islam while also superseding them.

In my mind at least, that indicates that there is some narrative progression, of which Islam would see itself as the most recent, or most complete, revelation; building on what came before while also correcting it (where it is seen as erring from Allah's/God's intended message). In that sense, I think it shares a lot in common with Christianity, a religion that more or less treats Judaism the same way.

Re: The camel, the rope, and the needle's eye

#87

Post by readthenotes1 »

kragen wrote: post #51
moolcool wrote: post #5

I always find the "eye of the needle gate" deflection funny, because why would anyone use metaphor that to make such a general point?

the gospels are uncontroversially full of metaphors and similes being used to make general points, generally attributed to jesus as in this case

Is "full" metaphorical there? Would "composed of" be more literal?

Re: The camel, the rope, and the needle's eye

#88

Post by anonymous_sorry »

booleandilemma wrote: post #64
moolcool wrote: post #5

I always find the "eye of the needle gate" deflection funny, because why would anyone use metaphor that to make such a general point?

You're asking why Jesus, the guy who speaks in parables, would use a metaphor to make a point?

The point is it doesn't make sense. "It's easier for a rich man to enter heaven than to park their Range Rover in a smallish garage".

So... slightly tricky but perfectly doable? It's not an interesting enough thing to record/claim Jesus to have said.

And why then are the disciples said to be so shocked and confused by the metaphor? "Woah there Jesus, you're saying it'll take a rich man a good 5 minutes of manoeuvring to get into heaven? Say it ain't so, son of Joe!"

Re: The camel, the rope, and the needle's eye

#89

Post by readthenotes1 »

SilasX wrote: post #28
082349872349872 wrote: post #2

Pace Aristippus (and the lentils), telling rich people what they want to hear is not a bad way to arrange for a stream of invites to fancy dinners.

I’m still scratching my head at that attribution of motive though. “No, rich guys, what He meant to say is that it’s at least as hard as threading a rope through the eye of a needle. So rich guys like you just have to do that simple thing to get into heaven, easy peasy!” ‘Um, that … also seems really hard?’ “Yeah but not nearly as hard as a camel. Like whoaaa those things are bulky and not even the some domain as tai…

If you are rich, you can afford a bigger needle
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