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Physical attractiveness and intergenerational social mobility

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Re: Physical attractiveness and intergenerational social mobility

#121

Post by zozbot234 »

gedy wrote: post #112
Spivak wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has gotta be one of my favorite parts of HN, it's an odd glimpse into how men view the world. You've got it backwards. In both cases what makes it harassment is continuing to push when it's unwanted. Why you seem to see a difference in results based on attractiveness is because your average guy can't take a hint no matter how attractive they are. So "success" becomes literally stochastic because guys never back…

> In both cases what makes it harassment is continuing to push when it's unwanted I worked at a place that had lots of young people and HR's definition included even a single time, and intent does not matter, perception does. They would also punish without letting the person know who/when/where they were accused by. This was not theoretical CYA policy, I saw one guy fired and another lose promotion and both swore the…

A workplace is a very special setting though. Your coworkers are people you have to be around day in and day out, and to mix any kind of romantic pursuit with that is just asking for trouble. Especially in this day and age when "perception" can easily shade into outright paranoid attitudes.

Re: Physical attractiveness and intergenerational social mobility

#122

Post by eutropia »

I'm a standard nerd; I have a warm personality towards people but overall, you know, I'm basic to look at. I feel like my attractiveness would be a neutral overall.

By some dint of cosmic luck, my wife and I's baby girl is astonishingly cute - as verified across multiple countries of travel and countless unprompted compliments paid to her from all types of people. She's got a winning smile and looks that consistently warrant the phrase "she looks like a doll". People get distracted from what they are doing when they see her and trip over things - it's absurd. It's not merely a "oh, every parent thinks their kid is cute" thing.

When I'm carrying her I get to experience this second-hand charisma boost related to being good-looking. It's incredible, people are more friendly, more helpful, and much more pleasant. So I would not doubt for a second that attractive people get a helpful boost!

Re: Physical attractiveness and intergenerational social mobility

#123

Post by leidenfrost »

helen___keller wrote: post #107
leidenfrost wrote: post #55

This relates to a criticism I have for woke and SJW people: Do they follow the same tendency? Most SJW people I know tend to be critical of the idea of a beauty standard at all, which is an interesting initiative if they can actually pull it off. And I do agree that it would be nice to stop being biased towards conventionally attractive people. Then, with that logic, we should be seeing "woke couples" who don't follo…

As a “woke SJW” I don’t think we’re on the same page for what it means to be “critical of the idea of a beauty standard”. For example, to me being critical of a beauty standard is rejecting the following statement: “All else equal, a person with double eyelids is more attractive than a person with single eyelids” Widespread acceptance of the above statement culturally is an example of a beauty standard, and it’s the…

> Rejecting this beauty standard does not mean I need to be attracted to every person with a mono eyelid nor have a partner with a mono eyelid.

You don't need to be attracted to _every_ person with single eyelids, unless you're attracted to every person with double ones. It's about treating both groups with the same standard.

And it also comes down to dating. If you don't try to incorporate your belief system into your own life, are you really rejecting it?

I see this all the time: I have fat friends, whose friends are all in for fat acceptance, yet when it comes to their own life, they avoid getting fat like the plague. They avoid being fat, their partners are almost never fat, and they share memes where the subject of ridicule is a fat person (not for being fat, but some other despicable attribute. But in the joke, they're always fat. Never athletic nor muscular).

Of course, it's not a 100% rule. We are all free to do whatever makes us most happy and nobody is obliged at gunpoint to do a radical shift overnight.

But If anyone subscribes to a core belief, it's expected to turn that belief into concrete actions in their life. Otherwise everything ends up being "web activism", and when you close the browser and go to the real world, everything stays the same.

Re: Physical attractiveness and intergenerational social mobility

#124

Post by leidenfrost »

handy2000 wrote: post #114
helen___keller wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a “woke SJW” I don’t think we’re on the same page for what it means to be “critical of the idea of a beauty standard”. For example, to me being critical of a beauty standard is rejecting the following statement: “All else equal, a person with double eyelids is more attractive than a person with single eyelids” Widespread acceptance of the above statement culturally is an example of a beauty standard, and it’s the…

Your example is overly focused on a small detail. I think what the parent commenter means, is that it's fairly uncommon to see highly attractive women who subscribe to the idea of "everyone is beautiful" date conventionally unattractive men.

And the same applies to attractive men with unattractive women. It's not necessarily a women vs men issue.

Re: Physical attractiveness and intergenerational social mobility

#125

Post by colpabar »

zozbot234 wrote: post #118
colpabar wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's really hard to do this well and not be boring however. Takes like these are very odd to me. The parent comment is basically saying to have a conversation and if it goes well ask the person out. If said person finds your conversation boring then why would you want to date them in the first place? So much discourse online about dating is "I HAVE to do X and Y and Z and it's just exhausting", but why? Why go thro…

> Isn't the whole point of dating to find someone who makes you happy and likes you for who you are? Yes it is, that's the whole point. As a dude, you're not going to signal "hey I like you for who you are, I care about making you happy" with boring conversation. You need something that's not just that, and is not "keep pestering them and don't take no for an answer" either.

I guess I just find the idea of "signaling" things strange. It's like women are fish and men are trying to figure out which bait to use.

A conversation will naturally be interesting if two people are interested in each other, even if it's about a boring topic. That's what chemistry is. It may start out boring, but if there is chemistry, it won't stay that way.

But hey, that's just me. I have absolutely zero interest in "the game" and doing things I wouldn't normally do to get women to date me, and I am lucky enough that I don't have to. I just see people talking about doing all this stuff to get women to like them and I can't help but think that a relationship started that way is doomed to fail. I would find it exhausting to constantly worry about "signaling" things to someone to keep them interested. I want to be myself, always, and if they're not interested, oh well.

Re: Physical attractiveness and intergenerational social mobility

#126

Post by harimau777 »

leidenfrost wrote: post #55

This relates to a criticism I have for woke and SJW people: Do they follow the same tendency? Most SJW people I know tend to be critical of the idea of a beauty standard at all, which is an interesting initiative if they can actually pull it off. And I do agree that it would be nice to stop being biased towards conventionally attractive people. Then, with that logic, we should be seeing "woke couples" who don't follo…

I don't think that many progressives actually believe or advocate that beauty doesn't exist. Generally what they advocate is that there is a wider variety of attractive body types than what is often depicted in media, that being unattractive should not be treated as a moral failure, and that society should avoid elevating physical attractiveness over competency for women.

Re: Physical attractiveness and intergenerational social mobility

#127

Post by zozbot234 »

colpabar wrote: post #125
zozbot234 wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Isn't the whole point of dating to find someone who makes you happy and likes you for who you are? Yes it is, that's the whole point. As a dude, you're not going to signal "hey I like you for who you are, I care about making you happy" with boring conversation. You need something that's not just that, and is not "keep pestering them and don't take no for an answer" either.

I guess I just find the idea of "signaling" things strange. It's like women are fish and men are trying to figure out which bait to use. A conversation will naturally be interesting if two people are interested in each other, even if it's about a boring topic. That's what chemistry is. It may start out boring, but if there is chemistry, it won't stay that way. But hey, that's just me. I have absolutely zero interest…

You think women don't try to figure out what 'bait' to use? It may be a game, but if so it's a game everyone plays. And we're all fish.

Re: Physical attractiveness and intergenerational social mobility

#128

Post by foobarchu »

Spivak wrote: post #51
wiradikusuma wrote: post #13

There's a saying (which could be specific to my country) about men approaching women. If you're handsome it's called flirting, if you're ugly it's sexual harassment. Joking aside, I do notice that successful men (again, maybe specific to my country) tend to be attractive and they usually have an attractive and smart partner. Successful but not attractive men can still have either attractive or smart partner (or both,…

This has gotta be one of my favorite parts of HN, it's an odd glimpse into how men view the world. You've got it backwards. In both cases what makes it harassment is continuing to push when it's unwanted. Why you seem to see a difference in results based on attractiveness is because your average guy can't take a hint no matter how attractive they are. So "success" becomes literally stochastic because guys never back…

> I kinda wish it worked like Brazilian steakhouse rules where I could wear something that signaled, "open to being hit on by strangers."

The "pear ring" is trying to make this happen but it hasn't really caught on much.

Re: Physical attractiveness and intergenerational social mobility

#129

Post by helen___keller »

leidenfrost wrote: post #123
helen___keller wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a “woke SJW” I don’t think we’re on the same page for what it means to be “critical of the idea of a beauty standard”. For example, to me being critical of a beauty standard is rejecting the following statement: “All else equal, a person with double eyelids is more attractive than a person with single eyelids” Widespread acceptance of the above statement culturally is an example of a beauty standard, and it’s the…

> Rejecting this beauty standard does not mean I need to be attracted to every person with a mono eyelid nor have a partner with a mono eyelid. You don't need to be attracted to _every_ person with single eyelids, unless you're attracted to every person with double ones. It's about treating both groups with the same standard. And it also comes down to dating. If you don't try to incorporate your belief system into yo…

Right, I largely agree with everything you’re writing. If you see an otherwise attractive guy and then he stands up and you realize he’s under 6’ and you are instantly turned off, you should examine your own preconceptions of beauty and reflect why you have such a toxic standard on height.

And so on for everything else.

I don’t even bring up weight because if you talk about being fat on the internet you get the “but you can change it” and “it’s for your own health” flame wars, and I don’t want the broader topic derailed.

GP made it sound like “I see SJWs with attractive partners, why are they such hypocrites” and while I’m sure there are hypocrites it’s also not the responsibility of any person to pick a partner that affirms their belief system. And certainly not for the sake of broadcasting this to internet commenters who want to feel confirmation bias about their views on “woke”

Re: Physical attractiveness and intergenerational social mobility

#130

Post by behnamoh »

kkielhofner wrote: post #78
Workaccount2 wrote: post #11

Being someone who was both conventionally unattractive and conventionally attractive (I had a digestive disorder for years that made me terrifyingly skinny and sickly looking), I can say that the difference is astronomical. Once I figured out what was wrong with me, fixed my diet and got in shape, the way people treated me in general shifted dramatically towards positive. Rather than starting from a unreceptive low w…

I have to imagine the “unattractive sickly stage” is likely related to basic things like monkey brain “hmm that person doesn’t look healthy maybe I should stay away from them”. Or pattern recognition stuff like “don’t see that everyday. What’s going on here?” that could lead to the skepticism and lack of trust and confidence. Otherwise people generally like looking at pretty things and being surrounded by pretty thin…

you can also say the same thing for traits like skin color. imo part of racist behavior is due to the primal instinct to stay away from whoever looks “different” from you, especially in a way that’s associated with diseases. like if you’re white, a brown person might come off as a little bit “sickly” to you, resulting in less favorable judgments. we know that it’s not necessarily true, but the monkey brain does its thing anyway.
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