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Flutter seems to be having bad times internally

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Re: Flutter seems to be having bad times internally

#81

Post by zigzag312 »

pjmlp wrote: post #78
zigzag312 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My mistake. I was thinking of Compose Multiplatform. Do you think Jetpack Compose could be made multiplatform in Flutter's way (ie drawing its own controls on all platforms)?

Maybe, although as proven multiple times, that has lots of issues with platform integration. Shortcuts don't work, accessibility doesn't work, integration with OS workflows might not work, lags behind any OS updates, there is Look but no Feel.

Proven is a bit strong word. Shortcuts can work, accessibility can work etc. Integration with OS stuff depends on the API OS exposes. Only mimicking & integration lags behind and only after the updates that actually change platforms UX. There is nothing magic about the "feel" that can't be implemented. It is a lot more work to develop a quality framework like this though. On the plus side it can work on the platforms without desktop environment.

Re: Flutter seems to be having bad times internally

#82

Post by vsnf »

zigzag312 wrote: post #72
vsnf wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should give Dart a try, it's a lovely language. and very easy to pick up. In fact, it's become my favorite of the modern languages. For perspective, I come from a primarily Java/C# background, with large smatterings of Python, JS/TS, and Go, not to mention other less popular languages. I would describe it as C#-lite. It's got all the features of a modern C-derived language with very little of the accumulated comp…

- no threads (isolates are much more limited) - no value types - missing fundamental integer types (eg. 64 bit unsigned integer) - no data classes (records are anonymous) - no tagged unions - no static metaprogramming (macros coming soon) - limited constructors (initializer list expression can't use earlier values in the list, no object initializers) List is still too often used in APIs instead of Uint8List, even tho…

I'm hardly the Dart Defense Force, so I'm not about to justify all their choices, and I share a lot of your annoyances, especially re: threads, data classes, and tagged unions, but what does people using List have to do with Dart itself? I don't hate on Java-the-language because the libraries are full of BeanFactoryFactory().

Still, I stand by my claim that it's C#-lite.

Re: Flutter seems to be having bad times internally

#83

Post by jauntywundrkind »

Probably related, The Future is Flutter where former HTML editor Ian Hixie says they are no longer at Google but declares their dedication to Towards a Modern Web Stack aka Flutter-web the low-level replacements of html with rendering one's app into Canvas. https://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1700627532 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38383306

I've written numerous times about what a terrible horrible thing for the web & for users this is, so I'll spare a repeat.

Even though I remain a skeptic of low-level app platforms like Flutter, I do respect a lot Tim's penultimate parting post, about this being work being a vocation, a calling for many of these folks. Being treated as industrial force, to be deployed at the leisure of the company, is disgusting & widespread, and I appreciate Tims words here.

> Any negativity you read is coming from folk who wanted to see senior leaders be better stewards of this amazing inheritance. It's not about the paycheck. These are people who believe in this work as a vocation. They're not fungible resources to be redeployed at whim.

I also would volunteer that Fuchsia seems really cool, like a really smart capable secure OS, and that I hope it can strongly persist.

Re: Flutter seems to be having bad times internally

#84

Post by account-5 »

I chose dart/flutter over everything else because it was easier to learn and was truly cross platform. I hope it isn't abandoned by Google.

That being said HN really doesn't like flutter and even more so dart. This thread is the busiest I've see about dart/flutter and most of it negative, almost like people want Google to ditch the tech.

I like dart/flutter for what it's designed to be, a write once deploy everywhere framework. Nothing else comes close if that's your goal.

Re: Flutter seems to be having bad times internally

#85

Post by zigzag312 »

vsnf wrote: post #82
zigzag312 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- no threads (isolates are much more limited) - no value types - missing fundamental integer types (eg. 64 bit unsigned integer) - no data classes (records are anonymous) - no tagged unions - no static metaprogramming (macros coming soon) - limited constructors (initializer list expression can't use earlier values in the list, no object initializers) List is still too often used in APIs instead of Uint8List, even tho…

I'm hardly the Dart Defense Force, so I'm not about to justify all their choices, and I share a lot of your annoyances, especially re: threads, data classes, and tagged unions, but what does people using List have to do with Dart itself? I don't hate on Java-the-language because the libraries are full of BeanFactoryFactory(). Still, I stand by my claim that it's C#-lite.

You can't do List, but need to use special types like Uint8List. This was not always available, so List is sometimes still used even in official Google libraries. If it had value types you wouldn't need these special lists.

I agree that overall it feels like C#-lite, plus some baggage from early days when it was designed as an alternative to JS.

It will probably become really nice language in a few years.

Re: Flutter seems to be having bad times internally

#86

Post by JohnTHaller »

jamil7 wrote: post #55
bsaul wrote: post #49

Isn't flutter supposed to also be the main way to develop UIs on google Fuschia ? Which is supposed to be the successor to android ? I'm surprised to see no mention of that aspect. Did i miss something ?

Is Fuschia meant to be anything more than an R&D project where some ideas get moved back to Android?

Google Fuchsia powers the Nest Hub sitting on my desk acting as a photo frame right now.

Re: Flutter seems to be having bad times internally

#87

Post by rokkitmensch »

sgt wrote: post #41
rapsey wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Flutter is mainly a mobile framework. Electron owns the desktop, anyone using flutter on the web is crazy. While you're points are valid, they are kind of irrelevant.

There is a use case for Flutter Web and that is an extremely simple user interface such a form or a simple workflow, which can share code with e.g. a mobile app. Other than that I agree - Flutter web is not going to be a good choice and that was never really the goal for them, I believe.

In that case, would be wrong with...a form?

Postback never died.

Re: Flutter seems to be having bad times internally

#88

Post by mort96 »

zigzag312 wrote: post #70
wg0 wrote: post #18

Flutter has three major problems: - Performance: Even on Desktop, animations have jank. Last I compiled samples on Mac, the problem was visibly there. - UX: Text editing immediately feels alien. If Mac for example, you have a text field in a native app and on the side you have a flutter app with a text field, you can tell the difference between the "feel" when you type in each. This isn't necessarily limited to text…

- Performance: I agree it's not there yet. But it's still improving. There is currently major Skia to Impeller migration in progress. It look like Flutter should be able to reach good performance once it matures. The only long term limiting factor regarding performance is declarative architecture of Futter, which adds a bit of overhead. - UX: Again I agree. It's not there yet. But due to Flutter being based on low le…

It doesn’t matter if Flutter reaches the same UX “quality”. What matters is that it will never feel native. I agree with you that this is a fundamental problem which pretty much can’t be fixed.

Re: Flutter seems to be having bad times internally

#89

Post by mort96 »

thiht wrote: post #79
s6ro wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Developers have control, if text is selectable or not. https://api.flutter.dev/flutter/material/SelectableText-clas...

They shouldn't.

FWIW developers have control over that on the web too.

What sucks is that the non-selectable text is apparently the default.

Re: Flutter seems to be having bad times internally

#90

Post by mort96 »

wg0 wrote: post #30
rapsey wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Flutter is mainly a mobile framework. Electron owns the desktop, anyone using flutter on the web is crazy. While you're points are valid, they are kind of irrelevant.

The marketing literature begs to differ. The Google's own Family Link app even on web[0] is also a Flutter app. [0]. https://familylink.google.com

Wow, the first thing I’m met with is a terribly choppy scroll rubber banding animation on a view which shouldn’t even be scrollable. Not only isn’t it 120 FPS; it doesn’t even feel close to 60.
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