Live data from Hacker News

The Failed Commodification of Technical Work

ludic.mataroa.blog

31–40 of 210 posts

Re: The Failed Commodification of Technical Work

#31
Consider the Business Intelligence/Analyst roles. The industry is trying to replace people who write SQL with people who can use Tableau or similar. "Just connect to whatever datastore you have and non technical people can drag and drop."

Its got some problems:

1. They forget you need to hire many more (lower paid) people, because your output now linearly scales. Human hands have to turn the crank because its all UI-based work.

2. You still end up with very complex and disorganized business logic transform code, and now its buried in the UI. The PMs or business teams are the only ones who know what that logic is. The engineering org delivers high quality, tested datasets that are pretty raw for the purpose of answering business team questions.

The hard part was always solving the weird way business outputs are obtained from raw upstream data. Now that solution gets stored in a tableau workbook and cant be used as input for something else. It has to be copy pasted from the UI into a new tableau workbook. Well, now we bought the Tableau cloud service and our BI team can build and maintain SQL extracts in a more rigorous way. Tableau now looks like its trying to take a chunk of Databricks business here, but now its a non-engineering team doing it.

Not sure its going to work out.

Re: The Failed Commodification of Technical Work

#32

I was really confused by the title, because doesn't "commodify" mean "to make saleable", like commercialize? Hasn't tech made billions? I think the author is talking about "commoditization", eg genericizing tech work so that any replaceable employee can do it. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commoditization : > This is not to be confused with commodification, which is the concept of objects or services being assig…

> doesn't "commodify" mean "to make saleable", like commercialize?

As fas as I understand, no, it doesn't.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/commodify

> to turn (something, such as an intrinsic value or a work of art) into a commodity

Thus, "commodify" is about "commoditization".

Re: The Failed Commodification of Technical Work

#33

I think every engineering manager has either worked for or interviewed with a company that believes this stuff. Software dev is still at the craftsman[0] level. It might move out of that, eventually. But not yet, and probably not in the next 20 years or so. We haven't solved some intrinsic problems around defining a problem completely, precisely and succinctly without having to write code[1]. And getting five enginee…

“craftsman” is fine, don’t worry about it

Re: The Failed Commodification of Technical Work

#34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that beyond the boilerplate we aren't solving commodity problems most of the time. If you've worked in the same field long enough, you'll see that things certainly rhyme, but everyone has slightly different business requirements. At each level of the stack this grows, and so in total there's a ton of non-commodity, bespoke work to do. That's why no two products are exactly alike and we don't just have…

The problem is that beyond the boilerplate we aren't solving commodity problems most of the time. The only people that see it is a problem are the ones that wish programmers were commoditized. Your complexity is my salary.

That complexity is how companies typically differentiate their product, generally purposely to keep it from interoperability with other software so their entire business is not commodified.

Just look at the IOT space to see this in play.

Re: The Failed Commodification of Technical Work

#35
You can't abstract away risk, you can't abstract away complexity. You can either reduce, increase or shuffle them. Shuffling with layers of abstraction is the manager class preferred approach. Which leads to tech stacks of the type - "only me and god knew in the beginning what was going on, now only god knows"

Re: The Failed Commodification of Technical Work

#36

I think every engineering manager has either worked for or interviewed with a company that believes this stuff. Software dev is still at the craftsman[0] level. It might move out of that, eventually. But not yet, and probably not in the next 20 years or so. We haven't solved some intrinsic problems around defining a problem completely, precisely and succinctly without having to write code[1]. And getting five enginee…

Getting a bit philosophical, I believe that the problem of 'defining a problem completely' is where the practical application of 'how then should we live?' gets self-referential. Startups spend inordinate amounts of time and money trying to figure out their customers' problems, drilling down, pivoting, etc. It's the challenge of silicon valley. And the more one increases the search space the more primary that questio…

I think that's two different, but related problems.

"what should we build?" is a different problem from "what do you think we should be building?" - the first is a customer discovery problem (what do our customers think they need?), the second is a communication problem (what does our manager want us to build?).

The related bit is that humans are bad at communicating and we need to spend a lot of effort deciphering ambiguous human waffle into precise program code.

Re: The Failed Commodification of Technical Work

#37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chat always writes me something that includes perfecttly_suited_package_that_doesnt_exist(my_inputs)

It's great isn't it. Npm packages that don't exist and yet always have the same parameters as your data.

eventually it will create and publish it for you, they say... not only the package definition, but the implementation also.

I don't know exactly why, but I doubt it will.

Re: The Failed Commodification of Technical Work

#38
Programming is still a craft, not engineering, or manufacturing. A software house should work like bespoke tailoring, or fine cabinetry, or glass blowing.

There's still no better training for programming than the equivalent of master/journeyman/apprentice. Apologies for the gender specific terms, but they are specific to how tradespeople operated from medieval times.

The worst thing to ever happen to the practice of business is the invention of the MBA. MBAs are imbued with the misleading axiom that management is a craft and science of its own, independent of the type of process or practice that is being managed.

Combined with endless selling of the latest buzzword theories by consultants is why we end up with JIRA-Driven-Development, nonsense like t-shirt sizes, 2 hour wankfests called "Sprint Reviews", let alone all the scrumming and standing-up and backlog-refining and endless make work.

Re: The Failed Commodification of Technical Work

#39
This is a real issue I've seen at my past jobs in Support -- in theory, the better the support team got at closing issues without needing RND, the better the case load should have gotten and the better overall time for everyone involved (support, rnd, C-levels, customers). We had many huge enterprise customers using the product (usual big names across the globe), and everything was working pretty damn well and people were happy.

Then the acquisition came, hordes of new C-Levels and directors added, and suddenly, the system everyone wanted was no longer enough; we needed more out of the Support/RND team for some reason, more sales, more renewals, more special contracts with ENT clients with exhausting demands from the company. And the expectation was just "be more efficient". All of this came over slow time with small changes (back porting features for ENT clients who refused to upgrade, forbidden solutions for the Support team because "it upset the major clients", allowing sales/renewals to force RND engagement if they demanded it, new CRM because it was too hard to do marketing campaigns in the old one, even though people were calling _us_ and asking to just send them a quote they liked the product so much)

I honestly think trying to commodify and extract even more from what was a very successful system financially and just overall ended up ruining pretty much everything. Sales are slumping as are renewals, we're churning RND and Support folk, and because of slump in sales, there's belt-tightening everywhere.

We've implemented so many new systems needlessly with huge implementation/consultant fees that absolutely no one knows how to use -- workday is a prime example of this as out of the box it doesn't do _anything_ we needed, but we had to use it anyways, and absolutely no way to pay for the features we really needed. Same with ServiceNow implementation, it was supposed to be a near 0-code experience we were sold, but naturally that was not the case. Why did we get it? No idea except that it came down from on-high from persons that don't use the CRM and now we're stuck with it.

For me what it comes down to is too many people having to be like the CEO and Bill from the article -- for some reason such Clevels need to show they're doing "something", but I didn't think that something should include implementing wild changes to workflows in the company the C's know nothing about, or even worse, responding to customer complaints and demanding we "fix the issue" without knowing what the issue is.

The conference experience from the article resonates with me heavily, cause we have all these systems that do "everything but nothing", all these workflow changes without listening to the people having to use the work, it's really awful.

Re: The Failed Commodification of Technical Work

#40

Consider the Business Intelligence/Analyst roles. The industry is trying to replace people who write SQL with people who can use Tableau or similar. "Just connect to whatever datastore you have and non technical people can drag and drop." Its got some problems: 1. They forget you need to hire many more (lower paid) people, because your output now linearly scales. Human hands have to turn the crank because its all UI-…

Respectfully disagree. Meaningful answers from raw data is hard, but the hardest part was always making business people to _ask the right question_.

Take as an example a typical business question: "which countries are our users from?"

But do they mean the country the user declared in the registration form? Or country they're currently accessing your service from? Or the one from their payment method? Or the one where they where born? Or the one they have citizenship from? Or the one they're currently residing on? Or their shipping address? Or they billing address? Or..?

If your dataset is sufficiently big, every one of those countries will output a different answer. I'm sure that in the "global fintech" space those weird cases become the norm.

Your typical lower-wage Tableau user will just look for whatever country codes show up and run a count, then declare it the truth.

A slightly smarter Tableau user will bribe an engineer to write SQL for them.

It'll take someone with knowledge of the dataset and probably the systems where the data is sourced from to push back and force the business to ask the proper question, and provide proper context.

Tableau and the like are good to replace "technical work" which is a guy copy/pasting the same SQL query into pgAdmin and emailing the resulting CSV on a daily basis, and then some, but it's not making "less skilled" UI-oriented workers to think better.

Post reply on HN