The Failed Commodification of Technical Work • Hacker News Board

Re: The Failed Commodification of Technical Work

#21

Post by mikepurvis » Fri, Nov 24, 2023, 1:16 PM UTC

solardev wrote: post #20

I was really confused by the title, because doesn't "commodify" mean "to make saleable", like commercialize? Hasn't tech made billions? I think the author is talking about "commoditization", eg genericizing tech work so that any replaceable employee can do it. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commoditization : > This is not to be confused with commodification, which is the concept of objects or services being assig…

I've always heard the term used in the sense that the author is using it. Oil is a commodity because there are many producers of it and it doesn't matter which one you get it from since they're all making the same thing.

Re: The Failed Commodification of Technical Work

#22

Post by marcus_holmes » Fri, Nov 24, 2023, 1:22 PM UTC

I think every engineering manager has either worked for or interviewed with a company that believes this stuff.

Software dev is still at the craftsman[0] level. It might move out of that, eventually. But not yet, and probably not in the next 20 years or so. We haven't solved some intrinsic problems around defining a problem completely, precisely and succinctly without having to write code[1]. And getting five engineers to write a single piece of software is exactly as complex as it was when Fred Brooks wrote about it, I think the only improvement we've had since then is Git.

[0] craftsperson? that doesn't feel like the right gender-neutral expression. I guess "artisanal" but that looks rude. Suggestions?

[1] The "I got ChatGPT to write this application without writing a single line of code" phenomenon is interesting, but it seems like an alternate skill path - you can write code, or you can write prompts. The complexity is the same, and the amount of effort is within an order of magnitude. I'm not sure, though - I haven't managed to get ChatGPT to solve a single technical problem successfully yet.

Re: The Failed Commodification of Technical Work

#23

Post by solardev » Fri, Nov 24, 2023, 1:24 PM UTC

mikepurvis wrote: post #21

solardev wrote: post #20

I was really confused by the title, because doesn't "commodify" mean "to make saleable", like commercialize? Hasn't tech made billions? I think the author is talking about "commoditization", eg genericizing tech work so that any replaceable employee can do it. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commoditization : > This is not to be confused with commodification, which is the concept of objects or services being assig…

I've always heard the term used in the sense that the author is using it. Oil is a commodity because there are many producers of it and it doesn't matter which one you get it from since they're all making the same thing.

Which term? Commodotize?

Aren't we in agreement with the author then, that tech work isn't quite the same as oil or burgers (ie it hasn't been commodotized, even though it's been commodifed?)

Or are you saying the two words mean the same thing?

Re: The Failed Commodification of Technical Work

#24

Post by banku_brougham » Fri, Nov 24, 2023, 1:25 PM UTC

marcus_holmes wrote: post #22

I think every engineering manager has either worked for or interviewed with a company that believes this stuff. Software dev is still at the craftsman[0] level. It might move out of that, eventually. But not yet, and probably not in the next 20 years or so. We haven't solved some intrinsic problems around defining a problem completely, precisely and succinctly without having to write code[1]. And getting five enginee…

Chat always writes me something that includes

           perfecttly_suited_package_that_doesnt_exist(my_inputs)

Re: The Failed Commodification of Technical Work

#25

Post by suoduandao3 » Fri, Nov 24, 2023, 1:31 PM UTC

loloquwowndueo wrote: post #17

edent wrote: post #3

I think - and it's only a think - that the author has ignored that a large part of what used to be called technical work is now commodified. I remember when a mail merge literally meant printing out lots of address labels and then manually sticking them onto a letter & envelope. Word 2.0 (?) solved that problem for the 1990s and MailChimp has commodified it for the 21st century. Double-entry book-keeping was technica…

Nah, WordPerfect and wordstar had mail merge way before word did.

I miss WordPerfect. Maybe it was the novelty but it had such enjoyable fonts.

Re: The Failed Commodification of Technical Work

#26

Post by suoduandao3 » Fri, Nov 24, 2023, 1:36 PM UTC

marcus_holmes wrote: post #22

I think every engineering manager has either worked for or interviewed with a company that believes this stuff. Software dev is still at the craftsman[0] level. It might move out of that, eventually. But not yet, and probably not in the next 20 years or so. We haven't solved some intrinsic problems around defining a problem completely, precisely and succinctly without having to write code[1]. And getting five enginee…

Getting a bit philosophical, I believe that the problem of 'defining a problem completely' is where the practical application of 'how then should we live?' gets self-referential. Startups spend inordinate amounts of time and money trying to figure out their customers' problems, drilling down, pivoting, etc. It's the challenge of silicon valley.

And the more one increases the search space the more primary that question of defining the problem becomes. Whether the execution is handled by chatGPT or a human coder, it looks to me like defining the problem we want to solve is the majority of our current frontier.

Re: The Failed Commodification of Technical Work

#27

Post by lysecret » Fri, Nov 24, 2023, 1:37 PM UTC

Well written and enjoyable read.

The image of a Burgermaster 5000 operated by a Highschool kid producing burgers is one that really gets stuck in your head.

I am wondering to which degree something like this might or might not come true with the advent of AI driven coding.

I have built a full swift app using Ai (not writing a single line of code) but it took a lot of coding knowledge to pull it off. I wonder if this will change.

Re: The Failed Commodification of Technical Work

#28

Post by dbetteridge » Fri, Nov 24, 2023, 1:39 PM UTC

banku_brougham wrote: post #24

marcus_holmes wrote: post #22

I think every engineering manager has either worked for or interviewed with a company that believes this stuff. Software dev is still at the craftsman[0] level. It might move out of that, eventually. But not yet, and probably not in the next 20 years or so. We haven't solved some intrinsic problems around defining a problem completely, precisely and succinctly without having to write code[1]. And getting five enginee…

Chat always writes me something that includes perfecttly_suited_package_that_doesnt_exist(my_inputs)

It's great isn't it.

Npm packages that don't exist and yet always have the same parameters as your data.

Re: The Failed Commodification of Technical Work

#29

Post by absoluteunit1 » Fri, Nov 24, 2023, 1:41 PM UTC

What a fun read; thank you!

I’m still very early on in my career in software dev (~3 years in) and you articulated the idea I’ve been grappling with extremely well in this piece. I could never find the word for it but “commodification of technical work” is the perfect way describe it.

Re: The Failed Commodification of Technical Work

#30

Post by radicalbyte » Fri, Nov 24, 2023, 1:47 PM UTC

solardev wrote: post #23

mikepurvis wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always heard the term used in the sense that the author is using it. Oil is a commodity because there are many producers of it and it doesn't matter which one you get it from since they're all making the same thing.

Which term? Commodotize? Aren't we in agreement with the author then, that tech work isn't quite the same as oil or burgers (ie it hasn't been commodotized, even though it's been commodifed?) Or are you saying the two words mean the same thing?

The work many were doing 30 years ago - making shitty PHP websites - has been completely commodotized to the point where as a dev many of us don't touch it. Why would we now that business people have enough literacy to click something which looks pretty together with Wix or that other website-as-a-service which funds 95% of podcasts :-)

Or hire a designer / commodity PHP-shop to make them a Wordpress.