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Ubuntu squeezes more performance than Windows 11 on new AMD Zen 4 Threadripper

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Re: Ubuntu squeezes more performance than Windows 11 on new AMD Zen 4 Threadripper

#191
post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My latest PC was a pretty randomly chosen Chinese PC from Amazon that advertised Ubuntu compatibility. In other words, except that advantage to slowly slip away from Microsoft too. It's been years since I really put any effort into checking before buying - it had gotten to the point I could assume that issues would be minor and/or resolved soon after purchase.

Those PC's look like great value and availability and are clearly very popular - have squeezed out other options like Intel NUC. Very tempting. But I've heard that you pretty much never get a BIOS update and the quality of any such update is going to be dubious. Nothing sinister about this - it is simply a bargain basement option. So, you are really throwing security out the window.

Security shouldn't be much of an issue with most modern CPUs. The microcode can be updated at boot time by the kernel, even if the one loaded by the BIOS is out of date. So microcode level patches are taken care of.

That leaves attacks on secure boot, which could be feasible with a bad implementation, but I doubt most home users would have to worry about an evil maid attack.

Re: Ubuntu squeezes more performance than Windows 11 on new AMD Zen 4 Threadripper

#192
post #70

If Microsoft backs off core Windows development, which it certainly seems like they are, this is what we'd expect to see... not a big bang where it suddenly stops working, but every year it'll just sort of fall a bit more behind Linux, until in 4 or 5 years the difference consensus will slowly just creep over to Windows being noticeably worse than Linux without any big bang switchover... and it'll sneak up on Microso…

In what are you basing that MS is backing off windows desktop development?

Re: Ubuntu squeezes more performance than Windows 11 on new AMD Zen 4 Threadripper

#193

Tangent I have this suspicion that Windows has basically a layer of analytics tracking over the top of the DE that slows the system for most desktop uses, and that they essentially "tunnel" through that layer when a program actually needs the performance. Like gaming or exporting a video project. This is why Windows is able to benchmark high for specific tasks, but for overall usage it feels very slow compared to eve…

Brother we have known this for years.

Re: Ubuntu squeezes more performance than Windows 11 on new AMD Zen 4 Threadripper

#194
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have been using using Linux for 16 years in total and 7+ years as my primary OS. Ubuntu itself is a performance hog due to snaps. And Ubuntu is NOT beginner friendly. As an ex-IT guy and as a linux enthusiast, It was not when I deployed it to developers and tech people in my company. And it is not beginner friendly when I install it to my friends & family. I used to use Ubuntu for work until last week. Used it beca…

Arch is terrible due to their bare testing package release policy. Generally accepted recommends: - Windows converts: Mint - General: Fedora / PopOS - Rolling: Suse Tumbleweed - Config fanatics: Nix - Minimalistic fanatics: Void / Alpine

Why not a stable distro with KDE for Windows convert? KDE is the closest thing that looks like Windows.

Re: Ubuntu squeezes more performance than Windows 11 on new AMD Zen 4 Threadripper

#195
post #70

If Microsoft backs off core Windows development, which it certainly seems like they are, this is what we'd expect to see... not a big bang where it suddenly stops working, but every year it'll just sort of fall a bit more behind Linux, until in 4 or 5 years the difference consensus will slowly just creep over to Windows being noticeably worse than Linux without any big bang switchover... and it'll sneak up on Microso…

> If Microsoft backs off core Windows development, which it certainly seems like they are, this is what we'd expect to see... If this is really true, I am deeply saddened. I grew up using almost entirely nothing but Windows since 98, and have used every version (except Windows Me) since. As a desktop and enterprise OS, Windows is pretty fantastic to develop with, natively , contrary to many opinions here. Technologie…

Linux supports ACL's, too, but they are not enabled by default. On plug and play, Linux won by a mile by default, as the kernel has much better support than Windows 10 which often has to connect itself to Windows Update.

On COM/.Net, today almost nobody cares. Modern ad-hoc built small-medium Corporateware it's bound to Java as a Hellish curse, and on the rest of the maket here just Direct3D matters; but not as much as before, because for mobile/console gaming Vulkan might work everywhere.

Also, on the enterprise, most people it's migrating to Unix backends and web frontends for lots of tasks. Login once, run everywhere. Does your management software work under a phone, tablet, desktop with an adaptive GUI? Then most of the company doesn't even need a Windows device.

Heck, most non-tech companies have outsourced their IT to 3rd parties and their user accounta are running under Windows virtual machines hosted on Unix servers. And modern BIOSes can run most of their setup under PXE/netboot and connect to these servers to boot their images; so, well, Windows in the desktop is more and more irrelevant.

Re: Ubuntu squeezes more performance than Windows 11 on new AMD Zen 4 Threadripper

#196
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I blame Windows Defender (anti-virus). It's the first thing I disable whenever I want to do some serious disk I/O. Also Windows still uses NTFS which dates back to 2000. For compatibility reasons, fair enough. But surely NTFS wasn't designed with SSDs in mind, let alone NVMEs.

NTFS has had several updates over the years, and supports trim just fine. Of course, that doesn't make it comparable to ext4 or zfs or whatever, but I wouldn't expect it to be the worst bottleneck in the system.

Some updates, but it's still old. There is only so much you can do while still maintaining Microsoft's legendary backwards compatibility.

For example I'm running Windows 11 Pro on this machine with a brand new NVME.

"fsutil.exe fsinfo ntfsinfo c:" tells me [0] I'm running NTFS v3.1 which was released 22 years ago [1].

[0] https://i.imgur.com/VcXNO4P.png

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTFS

Re: Ubuntu squeezes more performance than Windows 11 on new AMD Zen 4 Threadripper

#197

I've been playing around with Ubuntu training myself for the day that I have to give up windows 10. My only complaints are that Linux can be tedious, everything is just 43 commands away; it requires greater understanding of not just what the system is doing, but how it is doing it; and the documentation is written like a Wikipedia article on advanced nuclear theory. Windows and OSX have, for the most part, just worke…

About 15 years ago I received the advice, "If you want to be hacker, stop using Windows and start using Linux." Today, I am well aware that this is not the only path to enlightenment, but I count it as some of the best professional advice that I have ever received. This is colored by the direction my career has taken me: the technologies I use are open source, and that fits much better into the Linux box than others.

It's also not about writing code. Sure, when using Linux exclusively, sometimes you might have to hack together a little script to make your computer do what you want, but that's really not necessary, especially in the year of our Lord 2023. It's about tooling. So many younger devs that I meet still have irrational fear of the command line. Inability to use built-in documentation (like manpages), and again a fear of trying (because web browsers exist). Worst of all is the lack of understanding that these younger devs have of Unix permissions. We all know the guy who just pastes `chmod -R 777 .` or something from StackExchange. Since most of our production software still lives on Linux, knowing the proper way to configure these environments is valuable (though unfortunately undervalued, in my opinion, since improper configuration can still "work fine").

Using Linux full-time for years will make you more than comfortable. And yes, it probably will take years. You may come to prefer the terminal to most of the GUI wrappers provided in desktop Linux distros. You won't even notice when you come out the other side. You'll realize that everything only seemed like it was 43 commands away because you only knew 2 commands to begin with. Typing the most common commands will be second nature and take less time than moving your hand to the mouse. Anything that does need to be reasoned out and typed slowly you will learn to embed in a script, with comments so you can remember how it works, and that will save you even more time.

Most importantly, in the end you will have the confidence in your abilities to write long, condescending comments on Hacker News. I kid of course, but you will no longer fear tooling (though you may grow weary of it - looking at you nodeJS), and I truly believe that's a more important and difficult skill than reading and writing code of all sorts.

Re: Ubuntu squeezes more performance than Windows 11 on new AMD Zen 4 Threadripper

#198

I have two rigs here at home. A 12700k gaming box with a high end Nvme disk. Also, a 13900k workstation with Nvme disks as well. The gaming box runs Windows 11, and it feels generally snappy until I’m navigating the filesystem or dealing with compression. On the flip side the other box is running Debian 12 and feels significantly faster. Could be 12th gen vs 13th gen but I don’t think that’s the case.

My experience has always been that a Linux workstation environment outperforms Windows simply on account of the known poor performance of filesystem stuff on Windows vs Linux.

It's just different trade-offs. Windows has a user space env that does a shitload of background filesystem indexing/scanning. And then corporate environments usually cake on virus and compliance checkers on top of that. And then my understanding is that NTFS itself has always been optimized for different workloads than most Linux filesystems.

But right back into the 90s it was always like this.

When I boot this Ryzen laptop of mine into Windows, the core DE comes up really fast but there's then a good 2-3 minutes of busy cursors and background I/O hogging the machine before it becomes responsive. Ubuntu takes longer to boot, but then is immediately snappy as hell.

For mass market, consumer user stuff, the trade-offs make sense, I guess.

Re: Ubuntu squeezes more performance than Windows 11 on new AMD Zen 4 Threadripper

#199
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting thought, but you might be missing the hardware perspective. I switched from Windows to Linux this year, and the biggest issue has been drivers and hardware compatibility: audio available via headphones but not (laptop) built-in speakers, occasional display issues depending on the monitor setup, occasional WiFi issues. If hardware innovation stopped, Linux could catch up easily... but it won't, so there is…

Agreed. I have a Linux computer upstairs, and the Wifi dongle (I know, but it's fine!) broke. Buying a new one, or even knowing what to buy, that doesn't require me to USB key some random drivers (probably cloned off GitHub) is a tricky task.

Do you use Linux? There are no driver packages on GitHub you make. It's all in the kernel.

Re: Ubuntu squeezes more performance than Windows 11 on new AMD Zen 4 Threadripper

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Perhaps I should have chosen another flavor? That'll ignite a holy war. The trick with linux isn't to learn the flavour, it's to learn linux - once you get an overview of how all the bits work then switching distro is (much) more straightforward. Ubuntu is an excellent first choice because it's one of the major distro's so you'll be able to google stuff more easily. My personal recommendation would be Fedora (and i…

> That'll ignite a holy war. And that has been the major problem with Linux for years.

The duplication of work is staggering. The best people at Mint are working on the same problems as those at Fedora and PopOS and Cube and Suse … infinite loop.
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