In the gut's 'second brain,' key agents of health emerge • Hacker News Board

Re: In the gut's 'second brain,' key agents of health emerge

#151

Post by plufz » Wed, Nov 22, 2023, 1:00 PM UTC

armada651 wrote: post #139

belugacat wrote: post #136

This is why the reductionist argument of "your brain is reducible to a computer with inputs/outputs like any other, all we have to do is reimplement it" of AGI proponents always fell flat to me. It's now becoming clear that we can't just take the brain in isolation, treating the spinal nerve like a PCI-E lane - the gut has to come with it. And if the gut comes with it, all the other organs (skin top of the list) prob…

"your brain is reducible to a computer with inputs/outputs like any other, all we have to do is reimplement it" It still is though, you will reach human intelligence by just modeling the brain. The problem is that you probably won't reach an emotionally stable human since you'll be missing all the emotional/hormonal signaling that comes from the rest of the body, but we can emulate that without having to model the fu…

> you will reach human intelligence by just modeling the brain

I'm not so sure. I mean obviously this is very complicated and we still know very little of the brain.

Just one example (from what I understand) you can't really separate intelligence from emotions. There are researchers in emotions that explain our whole system of affect/feeling/emotion/mood/etc. as a very effective abstraction of all the inputs from our whole body (both direct inputs, cognitive processes and stored data). So without a working system of emotions I don't think you will have a working brain at all.

Re: In the gut's 'second brain,' key agents of health emerge

#152

Post by jb1991 » Wed, Nov 22, 2023, 1:00 PM UTC

fphhotchips wrote: post #115

agumonkey wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's also a strange satisfaction when skipping one or two meals. Even though you feel craving food for a little while, there's a feeling of being light, lean and sharp, even mentally.

This just isn't the case for me. I don't wake up when I skip breakfast, and if I don't eat throughout the day, I invariably end up exhausted by 3pm only to wake right up 45 minutes after dinner. I don't doubt your experience, but I certainly don't share it.

What kind of exercise do you get?

Re: In the gut's 'second brain,' key agents of health emerge

#153

Post by cal85 » Wed, Nov 22, 2023, 1:01 PM UTC

mewpmewp2 wrote: post #147

belugacat wrote: post #136

This is why the reductionist argument of "your brain is reducible to a computer with inputs/outputs like any other, all we have to do is reimplement it" of AGI proponents always fell flat to me. It's now becoming clear that we can't just take the brain in isolation, treating the spinal nerve like a PCI-E lane - the gut has to come with it. And if the gut comes with it, all the other organs (skin top of the list) prob…

The argument stays the same though. Your body is reducible to an input/output mechanism. In terms of complexity, since we haven't solved brain yet, it doesn't matter that much that there's also other parts of the body involved, as we don't even know the exact complexity of the brain, but the argument stays the same. In theory we are input/output mechanism, possible to emulate if there's enough capacity. But in additi…

I don't get it. I can see the human body as a system that comprises many input/output mechanisms. (And of course it's possible to emulate such a system given enough compute.) But how can you reduce it to a single "input/output mechanism"? Can you give an example input/output pair for this mechanism?

Re: In the gut's 'second brain,' key agents of health emerge

#154

Post by adrianN » Wed, Nov 22, 2023, 1:09 PM UTC

jb1991 wrote: post #150

mewpmewp2 wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument stays the same though. Your body is reducible to an input/output mechanism. In terms of complexity, since we haven't solved brain yet, it doesn't matter that much that there's also other parts of the body involved, as we don't even know the exact complexity of the brain, but the argument stays the same. In theory we are input/output mechanism, possible to emulate if there's enough capacity. But in additi…

In my opinion, a living creature is more than just an input and output mechanism. If I were to think up one way to define consciousness, it would be that it provides output even in the absence of inputs.

So does a random number generator.

Re: In the gut's 'second brain,' key agents of health emerge

#155

Post by _Algernon_ » Wed, Nov 22, 2023, 1:12 PM UTC

jb1991 wrote: post #150

mewpmewp2 wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument stays the same though. Your body is reducible to an input/output mechanism. In terms of complexity, since we haven't solved brain yet, it doesn't matter that much that there's also other parts of the body involved, as we don't even know the exact complexity of the brain, but the argument stays the same. In theory we are input/output mechanism, possible to emulate if there's enough capacity. But in additi…

In my opinion, a living creature is more than just an input and output mechanism. If I were to think up one way to define consciousness, it would be that it provides output even in the absence of inputs.

So does the bias in an artifical neural network. I wouldn't call a ANN conscious just because it has a bias.

Re: In the gut's 'second brain,' key agents of health emerge

#156

Post by bear141 » Wed, Nov 22, 2023, 1:14 PM UTC

dontlaugh wrote: post #122

bear141 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a theory that our natural state is “hungry”. We haven’t evolved past a time where getting enough food to be “full” would be a pretty rare occurrence. Everyone’s obsession with being perfectly comfortable at all times is why such an incredible amount of people die of obesity and its comorbitities every year in America.

Plenty of people lived entire lives without being hungry most of the time, but also without obesity being common.

My theory is fairly broad and vague, but your comment has taken those two things to an extreme.

Re: In the gut's 'second brain,' key agents of health emerge

#157

Post by xprn » Wed, Nov 22, 2023, 1:16 PM UTC

cal85 wrote: post #153

mewpmewp2 wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument stays the same though. Your body is reducible to an input/output mechanism. In terms of complexity, since we haven't solved brain yet, it doesn't matter that much that there's also other parts of the body involved, as we don't even know the exact complexity of the brain, but the argument stays the same. In theory we are input/output mechanism, possible to emulate if there's enough capacity. But in additi…

I don't get it. I can see the human body as a system that comprises many input/output mechanisms. (And of course it's possible to emulate such a system given enough compute.) But how can you reduce it to a single "input/output mechanism"? Can you give an example input/output pair for this mechanism?

“The human body” is the single I/O mechanism. Everything deeper than that is an implementation detail

Re: In the gut's 'second brain,' key agents of health emerge

#158

Post by officeplant » Wed, Nov 22, 2023, 1:27 PM UTC

jb1991 wrote: post #150

mewpmewp2 wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument stays the same though. Your body is reducible to an input/output mechanism. In terms of complexity, since we haven't solved brain yet, it doesn't matter that much that there's also other parts of the body involved, as we don't even know the exact complexity of the brain, but the argument stays the same. In theory we are input/output mechanism, possible to emulate if there's enough capacity. But in additi…

In my opinion, a living creature is more than just an input and output mechanism. If I were to think up one way to define consciousness, it would be that it provides output even in the absence of inputs.

But there is never a lack of input, just varied input.

Re: In the gut's 'second brain,' key agents of health emerge

#159

Post by Projectiboga » Wed, Nov 22, 2023, 1:33 PM UTC

whitepoplar wrote: post #34

XorNot wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

L Reuteri supplements made the biggest difference for me after about 3 months.

What were the specific benefits you experienced?

Ruteri is a patented strain that secretes a protein which helps other good bacteria colonies your gut. That plus a more complete probiotic plus another product Candex can really help your gut biome. Candex is enzymes that dissolve yeasts, which have become a big gut health issue over the last 80 years. Two major brands of probiotics are primadophilus, who have ones with Reuteri and another Jarro-dophilus, which is a collection claimed to reduce putrative bacteria. Finally the ancient Japanese super food Miso prepared at temperatures which keep it alive help colonize with a biome that digests all vegetable protein nearly fully.

Probiotics are fiber or long sugars which yeasts can't digest. The big issue nowadays is yeasts and leaky gut. The herbicide Roundup is suspected as a cause of leaky gut syndrome. Avoiding non organic wheat and non organic oats can help while you heal. Going to spelt bread or at least organic can help the gut heal. Using other grains like rice and others can help. Unless diagnosed as gluten intolerant or actually having Celiac disease skip the gluten free breads just avoid non organic wheat & non organic oats while you heal. Once your gut heals you can slowly relax those restrictions.

Re: In the gut's 'second brain,' key agents of health emerge

#160

Post by ncjcuccy6 » Wed, Nov 22, 2023, 1:48 PM UTC

plufz wrote: post #151

armada651 wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"your brain is reducible to a computer with inputs/outputs like any other, all we have to do is reimplement it" It still is though, you will reach human intelligence by just modeling the brain. The problem is that you probably won't reach an emotionally stable human since you'll be missing all the emotional/hormonal signaling that comes from the rest of the body, but we can emulate that without having to model the fu…

> you will reach human intelligence by just modeling the brain I'm not so sure. I mean obviously this is very complicated and we still know very little of the brain. Just one example (from what I understand) you can't really separate intelligence from emotions. There are researchers in emotions that explain our whole system of affect/feeling/emotion/mood/etc. as a very effective abstraction of all the inputs from our…

You won't have a working human brain emulation, but that doesn't preclude some other form of general intelligence with different emotional drivers being developed.