We're in dark times for people with morals.
The Old Testament has a lot on this theme, so I don't think it's a new problem.
75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing
101–110 of 159 posts
Re: 75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing
#102Earlier quoted context omitted.
Engineers are bourgeoisie.
Some engineers and part of the professional managerial class. Many (if not most) engineers are proletarians
Engineers are not part of the proletariat, at all. There are no working class engineers.
However, many members of the bourgeoisie and petite bourgeoisie LARP as proletariat — particularly academics.
https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/02/middle-class-income-in-major....
Re: 75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing
#103Earlier quoted context omitted.
I bet he meant ppl coming from specific country :) I've heard about it already
I've seen it and heard of it numerous times with India and China. But not Korea, Japan, Pakistan, or other countries. I find this inexplicable.
Here is a simple explanation: how many people there are from India or China immigrating to the US on H1B vs from those other countries you listed?
I would be more surprised if it was anything but “India and China” in your observations, just due to raw volumes.
Re: 75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing
#104It doesn't surprise me 75% of SWEs report retaliation based on my experience in tech, but credit to 100% of people with integrity that spoke truth to power and risked paying the price. The world would be a lot better place (in my humble opinion) if more people spoke up when things were wrong, and were less afraid of losing a job at a company crossing an ethical line they hold. I know that's a luxury opinion, but if you did the right thing and lost something important, that's a company throwing away the best of humanity and a clearly toxic culture.
Re: 75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing
#105I was listening to a podcast with Jim Rutt and he said that he encouraged people to give "bad news" and to not shoot the messenger. He was also against office politics and fired people for it. I wish more companies had this culture.
Do you honestly think the line between giving bad news or reporting bad behaviour and office politics is so clear cut?
Depends on the leadership style. Trad, Molochian behavior is unconstrained. Jim Rutt, Molochian behavior is scrutinized.
Re: 75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing
#106I was listening to a podcast with Jim Rutt and he said that he encouraged people to give "bad news" and to not shoot the messenger. He was also against office politics and fired people for it. I wish more companies had this culture.
For reference, this is the Future Fossils podcast 181. The leadership thing is in the first minute.
Re: 75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing
#107Earlier quoted context omitted.
I've seen it and heard of it numerous times with India and China. But not Korea, Japan, Pakistan, or other countries. I find this inexplicable.
Here is a simple explanation: how many people there are from India or China immigrating to the US on H1B vs from those other countries you listed? I would be more surprised if it was anything but “India and China” in your observations, just due to raw volumes.
I listed those three countries for two reasons: First, because they are adjacent to the first two I listed. Secondly, because workers from those countries are numerous enough in the companies I have worked that they could plausibly form ethnic enclave teams if they were inclined to.
In contrast, I have only worked with a small handful of Australians.. they are too few and far between to plausibly form all-Australian teams. I have worked with far more Japanese, Korean and Pakistani coworkers; these nationalities have been heavily represented in the workplaces I have experience with yet I've never seen nor heard of a team where they were conspicuously over-represented.
Another thing: In my entire career I've never been on a team of only white people (of any nationality), nor to the best of my recollection have I ever seen a team larger than 4 or 5 that only had white people. Guestimating some rough numbers... if a company is 50% white and 15% Chinese and there are no ethnic biases present, what are the odds I would see numerous large all-Chinese teams but never a large all-white team? This sort of circumstance arising without bias seems deeply implausible.
Re: 75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing
#108Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The ACM has a code of ethics required for membership. The ACM has never taken action against an ACM member for an ethics violation that was not directly related to research misconduct in an ACM publication (edit: or inappropriate behavior at an ACM conference). Unlike a medical board or bar association, the ACM has no capacity, resources, or staff tasked to enforce even research ethics violations outside of ACM pub…
These are all very valid points, and I appreciate you making them! But what I was trying to point out to GP is that the conversation here is not starting from 0. Certainly I'm not suggesting that ACM membership or their code is a sufficient answer, or the only possible answer. As a tangent, I'll point out that often, codes of conduct or ethical guidelines aren't "policed" in the way you seem to imply--by some kind of…
I try to adhere to association of civil engineer's code of ethics:
https://www.asce.org/career-growth/ethics/code-of-ethics
I wish more software folk did.
Re: 75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing
#109Extensible to nearly all professions? In academia it happens..
Definitely every profession. Exposing a problem either makes someone more powerful than you look bad, or makes you look bad for throwing someone else under the bus. Either way you're at risk of either retaliation or bad working relationships. The only relatively safe way to report problems is to do it anonymously and pray it doesn't come back on you.
https://www.asce.org/career-growth/ethics/code-of-ethics is my guideline.
Re: 75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing
#110Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's so bad, sometimes you face pre-emptive retaliation if you have a habit of speaking up lol. HR says that to avoid lawsuits. If you bring retaliation and bullying to HR, you will be fired but not right away so it won't look like retaliation but maybe after significant time has passed. The best place you can be in corporate america is unseen by middle management and have a good immediate boss who values you.
It still baffles me to think that some still believe that HR is on their side. Human resource is there to safeguard the company from regulatory, compliance, and legal challenges.
Is it in tech or in other industries too? (I am not that experienced, and have had relatively positive experiences with HR, besides occasional incompetence.)