Pretty vague article, does not give a definition of wrongdoing.
75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing
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Re: 75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing
#32Just 75%? A friend was working for one of those AI startups. They wanted him to download and effectively steal documents for training their LLM. When he pointed out that the TOS explicitly forbade mass downloading, they fired him immediately. Sleezy times.
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Re: 75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing
#33Extensible to nearly all professions? In academia it happens..
Definitely every profession. Exposing a problem either makes someone more powerful than you look bad, or makes you look bad for throwing someone else under the bus. Either way you're at risk of either retaliation or bad working relationships. The only relatively safe way to report problems is to do it anonymously and pray it doesn't come back on you.
Re: 75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing
#34We're in dark times for people with morals.
Re: 75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing
#35Earlier quoted context omitted.
> it ceases to be so clear cut. I think it's still clear cut. Losing everything is a lamentable disaster, to be sure, but that doesn't change the ethics of the situation. > If the society you live in won't look out for you in these situations It's not some faceless "society", it's actual people, including the specific people you know. If you're willing to do things that are harmful to others, you're actively working…
For me that is a bit too simple (no offense meant). If you are threatened you have to balance the harm you would be suffering by not complying with the harm you would be causing by complying.
I wasn't really saying differently. What I'm saying is that if you choose to do something you know is wrong -- even if it you feel there is no other option -- you're still doing wrong and are responsible for that.
Re: 75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing
#36I was listening to a podcast with Jim Rutt and he said that he encouraged people to give "bad news" and to not shoot the messenger. He was also against office politics and fired people for it. I wish more companies had this culture.
I don't know about Jim Rutt, but my overall impression is that most, if not all, companies are supposedly encouraging this culture of giving "bad news" and non-retaliation. Also reinforced by the usual compliance voodoo about supposedly anonymous reporting opportunities. I've never gained the impression that that was anything more than lip-service. The two people I know of who dared to say something were shown the do…
> The two people I know of who dared to say something were shown the door. Quietly, discreetly, done in a way so they wouldn't dare to sue.
How does this work? If I'm in this position, you'd have to either give me a lot of money or threaten to kill my family. I'd be surprised if a business tried the latter.
Re: 75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing
#37What's the definition of "wrongdoing" in the context of this article?... * Criminality? * Illegality? * Immorality (and according to whose standards)? * Misrepresentation/dishonesty? * Abuse?
As an engineer, you generally don't know which one applies. Even qualified lawyers don't decide on the actual criminality (a jury or judge after a valid trial does).
So I assume that "reporting wrongdoing" encompasses reporting up your management chain anything that "feels off," from mildly misleading marketing to actual witnessed or experienced harassment. Probably, in the vast majority of the cases, you are not qualified to judge it.
And in any case, even if you are wrong and the reported thing is "ok", there should never be any retaliation for just raising concerns and speaking up.
Side note and something hilarious, creepy, but kind of making sense: at one workplace (not SV big tech, but a big company), I had a manager-only training about "illegal harassment" that explicitly taught us what kinds of harassment are illegal (against protected categories) vs. "just" breaking the company's code of conduct, with quizzes on hypothetical situations and asking us "is this bad behavior potentially illegal harassment?".
Re: 75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing
#38I have watched HR videos while employed at every tech company I have worked at that would insist that retaliation is forbidden and it's ok to report wrongdoing.
Let's say, for example, I wanted to report something along the lines of: becoming a manager, then every one on the team slowly being replaced with at . I'm not convinced this is possible without retaliation.
I would love to see a survey with one question asked at all tech companies with more then 100 employees. "Promotions are based on merit, answer from 0 to 10."
Re: 75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing
#39What's the definition of "wrongdoing" in the context of this article?... * Criminality? * Illegality? * Immorality (and according to whose standards)? * Misrepresentation/dishonesty? * Abuse?
Does this really require an explanation? There is a right way of how things should be done, that includes everything you listed and also internal company rules, industry standard ethics and business practices but also implied and informally accepted norms and anything that isn't in the interest of the company.
So long as the person believes it is wrong, they can be corrected if they are wrong but they shouldn't be retaliated against!
Re: 75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing
#40Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't know about Jim Rutt, but my overall impression is that most, if not all, companies are supposedly encouraging this culture of giving "bad news" and non-retaliation. Also reinforced by the usual compliance voodoo about supposedly anonymous reporting opportunities. I've never gained the impression that that was anything more than lip-service. The two people I know of who dared to say something were shown the do…
> The two people I know of who dared to say something were shown the door. Quietly, discreetly, done in a way so they wouldn't dare to sue. How does this work? If I'm in this position, you'd have to either give me a lot of money or threaten to kill my family. I'd be surprised if a business tried the latter.
I don't know. I just know that they left the company, to everyone's surprise, shortly after something was reported, to work on something completely different two towns over.