Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Gang crisis shaking Sweden

ft.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

341–350 of 384 posts

Re: Gang crisis shaking Sweden

#341

Post by pretext »

tsss wrote: post #67
lm28469 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I just took the train into the city, had a burger & beer, and soon I'll train back home. I have zero worries about my safety. That's also the life of millions in Ukraine right now so your anecdote doesn't mean much Looking at the statistics and historical trends paint another picture, of course this isn't El Salvador, but it doesn't mean it's going in the right direction

Then maybe it's time for the thousands of Ukrainian refugees to go home already?

Maybe it’s time for thousands of Russian murderers, rapists, and pillagers to get out of Ukraine first?

Re: Gang crisis shaking Sweden

#342

Post by jacquesm »

mupuff1234 wrote: post #336
jacquesm wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'll need an ironclad definition of what Western values are and what a western society is and then you'll have to first go after everything that is homegrown that is also against those values. Ironically you'll find a ton of domestic parties that would like nothing better than to destroy their own select set of those. And then there is the little problem that Western values and society are still so young that they…

To continue the hiring analogy it's better to have a few false negatives in order to avoid a false positive. Not saying it's straightforward or anything, just that we probably need to put more effort into carving out an immigration policy as well as refining the "onboarding" process of immigrants.

Yes, absolutely but that costs money and nobody is willing to foot the bill. Also in the past such programs have been a feeding frenzy for the people on the supply side but with very little tangible effect.

Re: Gang crisis shaking Sweden

#343

Post by licebmi__at__ »

jacquesm wrote: post #202
throwawaaarrgh wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's quite the corkscrew you've turned yourself into just to say you don't trust Muslims. If you really believe it then just say it.

I suspect that isn't going to happen. It's interesting though how racism establishes itself by being anything but itself. And then, afterwards everybody wonders how it could have happened again. Let me take a stab at this in a way that it is somewhat balanced: I've grown up in Amsterdam, born in a time when there were hardly any immigrants and then wave after wave of them came by. What keeps me grounded is that I've…

Yep, people causing the same behavior with their prejudices that they are prejudiced against. It would be funny, if it wasn't a problem.

Even being a skilled high earning immigrant, the ones that are sought after, you will get some weird interactions. It's weird being called "one of the good ones" by a guy at a bar who was ranting about immigrants, but even interacting with nice intending people can get uncomfortable, like a native waiter telling me that once I learn the language, I will be able to get a nice paying job.

So far, things are still fine for me, I'm isolated about most of the problems, and I still find what I was looking for (a more quiet society, a less car centric infrastructure, different culture); but if the far right keeps rising, I will certainly think twice about staying. Those people will act on their prejudices, won't be able to asses if I really cause problems or not.

Re: Gang crisis shaking Sweden

#344

Post by whearyou »

pempem wrote: post #144
whearyou wrote: post #27

I suspect anyone who wants to address the elephant in the room here will have to choose between accepting support from semi-fascist types or getting cancelled

I suspect you haven't even begun to think your comment out. The idea that someone who does not presumably know the language, culture, or even where all the landmarks of a city/nation are suddenly start running organized crime is deeply mistaken and does not even track with the most well-known syndicates such as the mafia (1920s in NY compared to 1880s enmasse arrival of Italians) or cartels ("homegrown"). Look deeper…

Nice zinger.

That was a lot of words.

One question - are there any patterns with who is involved in this gang violence?

Re: Gang crisis shaking Sweden

#345

Post by rasz »

TrackerFF wrote: post #230

For too long, there has been this apathetic "well, if I'm not a gangster, then why should I care?" mentality, because up until lately the crime has been localized to people in the gangs. Gang members killing other gang members, basically. Even in the no-go areas, you're pretty safe walking around as a civilian. You'd expect those areas (in Sweden) to look like war zones, where the citizens and bystanders are locked u…

> The gang members aren't first generation immigrants, we're talking at least second gen - even third generation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rawa_Majid

>Majid's parents are from Iraqi Kurdistan, but he was born in Iran when they were fleeing Iraq on the way to Sweden during the Iran-Iraq war. The family settled in Uppsala in Sweden when he was one month old

Re: Gang crisis shaking Sweden

#346

Post by jacquesm »

licebmi__at__ wrote: post #343
jacquesm wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect that isn't going to happen. It's interesting though how racism establishes itself by being anything but itself. And then, afterwards everybody wonders how it could have happened again. Let me take a stab at this in a way that it is somewhat balanced: I've grown up in Amsterdam, born in a time when there were hardly any immigrants and then wave after wave of them came by. What keeps me grounded is that I've…

Yep, people causing the same behavior with their prejudices that they are prejudiced against. It would be funny, if it wasn't a problem. Even being a skilled high earning immigrant, the ones that are sought after, you will get some weird interactions. It's weird being called "one of the good ones" by a guy at a bar who was ranting about immigrants, but even interacting with nice intending people can get uncomfortable…

If you're in NL feel free to drop me an email and I'll be happy to meet.

Re: Gang crisis shaking Sweden

#347

Post by t-3 »

29athrowaway wrote: post #217
bad_user wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about the others, but Greece tends to be a transit country, not a final destination. It does get immigrants, but those interested in crime tend to migrate to higher-GDP countries. I can see the same trend in my country too. The people coming here, for now, are very hardworking and law-abiding, whereas those interested in crime tend to migrate, our natives included, too. It's good to know that immigrants,…

Can you give 1 example where the solution you suggest has worked in the long term? i.e.: my population pyramid is broken, I am going to replace the base of the pyramid with foreigners. I do not have a problem with that idea, but bringing people from territories where marrying your 1st cousin is legal is a bad idea with bad consequences: lower IQ, expensive health conditions, bad temperament (and hence crime), etc.

> bringing people from territories where marrying your 1st cousin is legal is a bad idea with bad consequences

Like half the US? (and the map for that looks probably exactly opposite what you're thinking right now: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_Uni... )

Re: Gang crisis shaking Sweden

#348

Post by injeolmi_love »

jongjong wrote: post #201
injeolmi_love wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly this. It’s not even a secret, quite a few intelligence and defense agencies have published reports in this issue. These agencies even intentionally using this process to destabilize target countries first. Based on what I’ve read the agencies haven’t fully recognized that it will eventually come for everyone, though I have seen that written as a scenario. It’s likely effective state agencies will continue to…

It feels like the tables are turning and the tactics that the west used to destabilize developing countries will now be used against it. Also, the west might end up saddled with illegitimate debts to consolidate the mass enslavement under a corrupt elite class just like it was in Africa. I won't be surprised if we start to see western dictators come to power (if it hasn't already happened). We should expect our dicta…

That’s definitely a possible outcome. I don’t think the universe enforces cosmic justice though, so it’s just as possible the west transitions into the post-state era with stronger institutions and more access to resources.

Re: Gang crisis shaking Sweden

#349

Post by FirmwareBurner »

injeolmi_love wrote: post #324
FirmwareBurner wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Neither Hungary nor Slovakia are great places to live by most metrics Huh? What's wrong with living in Slovakia? You're making it sound like Slovakia is Botswana, Saudi Arabia or something when it's one of the safest and developed countries in the world, unless you opinion of Slovakia comes from the famous Bratislava scene from the movie Eurotrip.

Slovakia has a gdp per capita of around $21k and has stagnated with low growth since 2008. It has relatively high hdi ratings but these have also begun to decline. Both of those things are really not good for a country that hasn’t climbed out of the middle income trap yet. It’s a beautiful place, and there are certainly worse countries, but calling it one of the most developed countries is stretching the facts beyond…

>Slovakia has a gdp per capita of around $21k and has stagnated with low growth since 2008

Firstly, which developed countries (that don't have "cheat codes") haven't stagnated GDP-wise post 2008? AFAIK, most of them.

>a country that hasn’t climbed out of the middle income trap yet

Secondly, GDP growth as a number on it's own, is pretty useless, as it's not a 1:1 representation of quality of life increase for the average citizen. GPD can grow just from some billionaires moving trillions form one to another or from extracting wealth from your country and its citizens, that doesn't necessarily mean the average citizen gets a piece of that pie or gets to see better quality public services. It just feeds the "line goes up" crowd who see a country as a publicly listed corporation.

Thirdly, as a country, once you reach a certain level of development by plucking the lowest hanging fruits that have been tried and tested and know to work by former industrial powers, growth becomes much harder and more capital intensive, only accessible to countries that already have crazy money to spend in R&D and innovation in the newly developing high growth markets, like the US, UK, China, Netherlands, Switzerland, Scandinavia, etc. Everyone else is stuck waiting and playing catch-up for eternity, but that doesn't mean they live poor lives.

The GDP per capita of Zimbabwe grew 3x post-2008 while Slovakia has relatively stagnated, yet I know for sure in which one I'd prefer to be born in.

>calling it one of the most developed countries is stretching the facts beyond breaking

It's one of the most developed countries in the world when you look at how bad the whole world is doing right now, not just the US, Germany, Singapore or Australia, which have their own challenges when you zoom in on them and not just glance at the "line goes up" GPD numbers.

Re: Gang crisis shaking Sweden

#350

Post by oblio »

debatem1 wrote: post #322
oblio wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I think the key think to understand here is that it's not about genetics, despite what idiots keep harping on. We're all apes and a random individual transplanted in another group after birth will quickly start accumulating cultural traits from that group. That said, culture is strong and it's even stronger in the internet era, especially for large groups of individuals. It's extremely hard to bend or break it.…

I think that if you had a specific and defensible point about immigration policy you would have put it here. What you actually put takes great care to be so indirect that you cannot even be identified as having a specific position, let alone one that can be discussed in a rational way. Given the number of words you spent on it I'd guess that means it's either unserious or unsavory, and don't really care to parse whic…

An example:

> In this chapter I am going to demonstrate that Arab education, in all its various forms, teaches the values of the dominant Arab culture. Education in the Arab world, both formal and informal, constantly seeks to mold the actions and thinking of the individual along the lines of the culturally regular patterns of behavior described in Chapter 17.

> >>. It isn’t found in the formal curriculum. You won’t find a class in any Arab school called “Conformism 101.” Instead, you will find it in the teaching method itself: in how students are taught to think, to learn, and to behave.

Page 417.

Read the book. Stop projecting.

It's a complex matter and for some stuff people REALLY love to put their heads in the sand. Some problems need to be tackled head on, as Denmark is doing at the moment.

Post reply on HN