The Lack of Compensation in Open Source Software Is Unsustainable • Hacker News Board

Re: The Lack of Compensation in Open Source Software Is Unsustainable

#381

Post by infamouscow » Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 11:00 PM UTC

teddyh wrote: post #374

infamouscow wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not disagreeing with you, you're just wrong. It's not reasonable to expect a project to receive updates, security fixes, and new releases for software projects the author put on the Internet explicitly with a license saying it's warrantied for no purpose, both explicit and implicit.

I was going to present a fair rebuttal, but you’ve just convinced me that it’s unreasonable for you to expect any answer from me in this debate.

There's nothing to debate.

Your starting point is to selectively ignore parts of the authors explicitly chosen license.

It's sophistry.

Re: The Lack of Compensation in Open Source Software Is Unsustainable

#382

Post by bawolff » Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 11:23 PM UTC

zackmorris wrote: post #362

bawolff wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dont think that is what the person you were replying to is saying. > I think the fallacy in your argument is that you're blaming contributors for noticing that they aren't being compensated for the work they've done, rather than blaming others for using that work without giving anything in return. Is anyone being forced to work on open source software? Unlike low wage jobs, where you could be forced in order to pay…

Edit 2: you're right, I read the parent comment backwards. They're saying that people using open source code have no right to place demands on contributors. This is a teachable moment for me, so I'll leave my thought process below, even though it doesn't apply now. -- If I follow your logic, then you're saying that there's no economic incentive to work on open source software, since it's not compensated financially.…

To put it in the broader context (outside of what the start of this thread was) - i view it similar to painting.

Do some people get rich selling paintings, sure some do. Do most people? absolutely not. Is that a problem, i don't particularly think so.

People paint for a variety of reasons, some ecconomic, but most not. Similarly people contribute to open source for a variety of reasons, some ecconomic some not.

> It sounds like the only rational act under capitalism is to not work on open source software, since the work is not compensated.

Broadly stated, i agree with this. Unless you have some specific angle or business model, contributing to open source is a terrible way to get rich.

While it would be nice if my contributions made me a millionaire, i don't see it as a fundamental injustice that they don't. I knew that going in and did it anyways. If i wanted big bucks i would be optimizing my life to work at FAANG and that has its own set of trade offs.

Re: The Lack of Compensation in Open Source Software Is Unsustainable

#383

Post by simbolit » Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 11:39 PM UTC

teddyh wrote: post #367

simbolit wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's look at one of my favorite open source projects: https://github.com/gorhill/uBlock Does gorhill need a disclaimer, as you propose? If so, please tell me specifically, where you are reading any "implied support, security bugfixes, and future development". I am not purposefully complicated, I just feel your "implied" is doing a lot of work, and I want to see what that really means. I don't see the implication, bu…

Firstly, uBlock doesn’t really talk about its own updates, since all the frequent updates it needs are provided by its filter lists. It’s basically an app store, a little bit like F-Droid. And you’re right, I can find no explicit language that either states or implies any of the things i listed. But think of it this way. There is a prominent link to their list of releases, https://github.com/gorhill/uBlock/releases >…

I am no longer sure there is much disagreement... just a different perspective on the world, I guess?

What you say is kinda true, but directly proportional to time since the last commit (currently for uBlock 9hours ago). If there has been a commit over the last few days, yes, I (not particularly reasonably, but still) expect there to be updates. But this expectation (and reasonableness) diminishes with this commit further away, if that becomes months and then years, I no longer expect that.

And in your hypothetical conversation, a lot hinges on your exact framing and phrasing of both the (non)entitled question and the phrasing of the answer. Yeah, your hypothetical developer is a dick. Don't be a dick, both sides.

Again, I feel there isn't enough disagreement here for argument. Enjoy your perspective, have a good day or night.

Re: The Lack of Compensation in Open Source Software Is Unsustainable

#384

Post by pydry » Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 11:47 PM UTC

mikrl wrote: post #223

andsoitis wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with your sentiment of "Unless that guy specifically says he's going to maintain it for free you are entitled to exactly absolutely nothing" That works both ways though, a maintainer cannot expect users to not complain (so they have to develop management strategies where they ignore the noise, rather than try to engage/capitulate). A maintainer can also not lament when users do not feel the desire to contribu…

>so they have to develop management strategies where they ignore the noise I believe this is called “please use the template when submitting an issue” and we all know how that goes. I’ve honestly found myself laughing like a madman at GitHub issues where the maintainer calmly and repeatedly tries to explain to the increasingly disgruntled reporter to UTFT (use the fine template)

To be fair the UX on those things is abysmal.

Github could improve the experience 10 fold.

Re: The Lack of Compensation in Open Source Software Is Unsustainable

#385

Post by matheusmoreira » Sat, Nov 18, 2023, 1:29 AM UTC

lakpan wrote: post #7

The annoying part in this debate is people spending their lives on a project and demanding to be paid for it. Don’t do it! Who’s asking you to work on it? I say this as a minor OSS developer who receives some donations. I love the money, but it would be pretty dumb for me to say they oughta pay me, because the only reason I work on it is addiction/compulsion/procrastination of real work. If it bothered me that people…

As long as it's some hobby thing where you don't make any promises. If people start expecting stuff, they should start paying for it.

I suppose projects can get so big that developers literally don't have enough free time to fulfill people's expectations even if they wanted to do it. At that point they should get sponsored so that it become possible for them to devote more time to their projects. Sponsorships seem like a perfectly ethical way to make money to me. With enough sponsors people can afford to quit their jobs and work on their own thing full time. I've seen news of developers who did just that when they got enough support. I hope they're doing well.

Re: The Lack of Compensation in Open Source Software Is Unsustainable

#386

Post by andrewjl » Sat, Nov 18, 2023, 1:42 AM UTC

teddyh wrote: post #368

andrewjl wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At best, that only covers bug fixes. And, as I said, bug fixes are usually implied to be available in future releases Can you explain how you got to that interpretation from that phrasing? > SHOULD THE PROGRAM PROVE DEFECTIVE, YOU ASSUME THE COST OF ALL NECESSARY SERVICING, REPAIR OR CORRECTION. And how is future development and / or support not covered under servicing of that clause?

Fixing defects is a different activity from support and future development, no?

Why is that distinction important? Especially in light of the first sentence of the paragraph that sentence is embedded in.

> THERE IS NO WARRANTY FOR THE PROGRAM, TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW.

Re: The Lack of Compensation in Open Source Software Is Unsustainable

#387

Post by matheusmoreira » Sat, Nov 18, 2023, 1:46 AM UTC

WorldMaker wrote: post #356

BeetleB wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think the issue here is that we don't have a system where being an OSS contributor is a sustainable career path. As is true for many (most?) crafts. If I am an artist (e.g. painting, digital art, etc). and give my work away for free, my fellow artists are not going to sympathize with my inability to make a living. Ditto photography ("look at all these companies taking my free stock photos and not giving me any mo…

Or maybe that's a large neon sign that we should fix those, too? Why isn't it a sustainable career path to be an artist or photographer or musician or writer or open source contributor? (Outside of the lucky 1% or so at the top of those crafts, of course.) Why are creative pursuits so much harder to make a sustainable wage on in our society? Why do we expect most of them to be unpaid hobbies? Why do we expect the art…

> corporate sponsorship/patronage

Those are the only things that make any sort of sense. The alternative solutions require a reality distortion field to even begin to work. Copyright? It's logically reducible to attempting to sell numbers. It just isn't going to work in a universe where globally networked computers exist. Intellectual work is infinitely abundant once created.

We gotta figure out new business models. What's valuable isn't the end product, it's the labor that creates it. We need ways to get paid either before or during the creative act, not after it. Sponsorship and patronage accomplish this and are perfectly ethical. I see artists accepting commissions and requests for a price, that's another business model that satisfies the requirements I mentioned. GNU once proposed a vision where all software was free and people would hire programmers to work on the features they were interested in.

Re: The Lack of Compensation in Open Source Software Is Unsustainable

#388

Post by matheusmoreira » Sat, Nov 18, 2023, 1:53 AM UTC

anon291 wrote: post #318

rpastuszak wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I meant it in a general sense, I think we'd be in a better place as a society if this model of work was easier to follow/more mainstream.

> I think we'd be in a better place as a society if this model of work was easier to follow/more mainstream. Why?

Because it would mean more people working on free software which permanently enriches all of us.

Re: The Lack of Compensation in Open Source Software Is Unsustainable

#389

Post by TillE » Sat, Nov 18, 2023, 2:06 AM UTC

pydry wrote: post #384

mikrl wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>so they have to develop management strategies where they ignore the noise I believe this is called “please use the template when submitting an issue” and we all know how that goes. I’ve honestly found myself laughing like a madman at GitHub issues where the maintainer calmly and repeatedly tries to explain to the increasingly disgruntled reporter to UTFT (use the fine template)

To be fair the UX on those things is abysmal. Github could improve the experience 10 fold.

UX can help a bit, but fundamentally the problem is people who have an issue or question but are completely unable to communicate it in a way that can be understood and addressed.

The garbage bug reports I see on my projects and others are like, either one sentence or rambling nonsense. The templates don't help much, these users will do their best to ignore them.

As long as you're not doing that, your bug report is probably very welcome.

Re: The Lack of Compensation in Open Source Software Is Unsustainable

#390

Post by WorldMaker » Sat, Nov 18, 2023, 2:41 AM UTC

matheusmoreira wrote: post #387

WorldMaker wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or maybe that's a large neon sign that we should fix those, too? Why isn't it a sustainable career path to be an artist or photographer or musician or writer or open source contributor? (Outside of the lucky 1% or so at the top of those crafts, of course.) Why are creative pursuits so much harder to make a sustainable wage on in our society? Why do we expect most of them to be unpaid hobbies? Why do we expect the art…

> corporate sponsorship/patronage Those are the only things that make any sort of sense. The alternative solutions require a reality distortion field to even begin to work. Copyright? It's logically reducible to attempting to sell numbers. It just isn't going to work in a universe where globally networked computers exist. Intellectual work is infinitely abundant once created. We gotta figure out new business models.…

The point is maybe that corporations are proven to be poor stewards of who deserves sponsorship/patronage, so while sponsorships/patronage are the things that make the most sense as sustainable under our current economic models and corporate ones are currently the only ones that seem reliably sustainable yet there aren't enough of them and a lot of important labor is getting underfunded/unfunded, maybe that deficiency points to our economic models themselves as the problem.

Sure, we don't have a better economic model on hand. That's most of what I was pointing out. I don't know what the answer is, but root cause analysis suggests we may have some flaws in our root economic models that as a society it would be great to fix and raise a lot of boats, not just open source developers but artists and craftsmen and writes of all sorts that are also under-appreciated in the current economic models.