280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars • Hacker News Board

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#401

Post by analog31 » Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 6:34 PM UTC

tomcar288 wrote: post #378

NovemberWhiskey wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Riding a bike is not fun if you're doing it to commute - having to do it in all weathers, in traffic that feels unsafe, even if you don't feel like it and got poor sleep etc. It's really fundamentally not the same.

I spent almost an entire year e-biking to work 7 miles and back 7 miles. I can tell you, all the issues you mentioned are correct. I think, if we had dedicated bike lanes that were away from the main roads, at least we can address the safety issue. that would go a long way towards getting me back to commuting on an e-bike. One more big issue for bikes is the cost of it. I've commuted almost 1100 miles on my ebike and…

That's like 30 bucks per flat! But given your original tires will certainly wear out, start researching puncture resistant tires now. And a patch kit. ;-)

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#402

Post by macNchz » Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 6:35 PM UTC

itsoktocry wrote: post #321

tfrutuoso wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's very elitist. Not everyone lives in large cities with whole mass transit systems or works the usual 9-5. Even in large urban areas it's tricky to get around past a certain time. I remember working unexpected shifts and later staring at closed metro stations, having to walk in the rain to get home. No thanks. Also, some people like cars. Deal with it, i'm not ditching for an e-bike or whatever. An electric moto…

> Not everyone lives in large cities with whole mass transit systems or works the usual 9-5. Even in large urban areas it's tricky to get around past a certain time. I remember working unexpected shifts and later staring at closed metro stations, having to walk in the rain to get home. These conversations are difficult to have here. You get people from large metropolitan areas who have no clue how "the deplorables" l…

Having grown up in a rural place, I’d say the way infrastructure is built in America arguably serves the rural poor the worst. Totally dependent on cars to go anywhere, with effectively no choice but to spend a large portion of your income on a likely old and and unreliable vehicle, to get to a job that will happily fire you for being late if you have a problem with it. Once upon a time even quite small rural towns had actual shops, trains, even trams, that people could live nearby to, but we’ve mostly gotten rid of those.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#403

Post by JAlexoid » Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 6:35 PM UTC

cornholio wrote: post #185

camgunz wrote: post #83

I've said it before and I'll say it again: building the future around cars of any kind is completely unsustainable. We cannot reproduce the rates of rich world car ownership in the developing world without mass catastrophe (raw materials/labor needed for construction and maintenance, raw materials/labor/space needed for roads and parking lots, literal tons of waste--batteries, tires, steel, plastic, foam--, energy ne…

There is a little something that's missing from the analysis above: what people actually want. And what many people want, across many cultures once they reach a certain level of wealth, is the suburban home: low density living in isolated housing units set in a park like environment with ample greenery. Just look at almost any billionaire's mansion and you will see this pattern which becomes an aspiration for the mid…

Suburban sprawl is literally a result of policy, not just "what people want". Most people would love to live in a gigantic castle in the Loire valley with a helicopter taking them to the office - should we subsidize that as well?

Enabling people's wants by subsidizing it from other people's pockets - makes for a very bad result.

Start removing tax breaks for home ownership, rationally spreading the burden of maintaining infrastructure and other fun things that are subsidized today - you'll quickly learn that most people will weigh their options and think twice about McMansions.

The reality is - many people would love to live in a small town, with a train station to take a reliable ride to work in the city. Look at what happened in England, when already subsidized train tickets from satellite towns rose in prices.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#404

Post by barbazoo » Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 6:36 PM UTC

itsoktocry wrote: post #338

epistasis wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's always hilarious to me when people driving $60k vehicles ask me how much the ebike cost and say "that's expensive". The ebike costs less than they pay in insurance a year, much less maintenance, gas, etc. Some people have weird ideas about cars being "for regular people" while any money spent on a bicycle is a luxury.

> The ebike costs less than they pay in insurance a year, much less maintenance, gas, etc. Let me just get on my eBike and cruise the streets in the 4+ months we have snow, and 6+ months it's cold. We don't all live in California.

There are certainly regions where the weather is impractical to commute or run errands on bikes. But often all one needs is the proper gear and some willingness to change habits.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#405

Post by oezi » Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 6:36 PM UTC

concordDance wrote: post #206

camgunz wrote: post #83

I've said it before and I'll say it again: building the future around cars of any kind is completely unsustainable. We cannot reproduce the rates of rich world car ownership in the developing world without mass catastrophe (raw materials/labor needed for construction and maintenance, raw materials/labor/space needed for roads and parking lots, literal tons of waste--batteries, tires, steel, plastic, foam--, energy ne…

> The only problem that self-driving cars will ever solve is where to put VC money in a zero interest rate world. We've had freight trains and mass transit for centuries. They solve stress from a 30 minute daily commute. Public transport is never door to door and there are always changeovers and cancellations, while self driving cars on demand can be door to door and is far less dependant on whether there's a labour…

> whether there's a labour dispute

Crazy thought: if they strike and you can't get to work then don't go but put pressure on those who are at fault for the strike: stingy businesses.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#406

Post by greendave » Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 6:37 PM UTC

michpoch wrote: post #344

smt88 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A very tiny number of people in the US live a 5 min walk from a grocery store. Many people live within 5 miles of one, but usually in denser areas where 5 miles could easily take 30-60 min of travel.

So how does it work? How do you e.g. get your fresh bread in the morning? Are there some local community bakieries instead?

A small fraction of Americans shop daily for food. For the majority, it's a weekly (or even less frequent) occurrence.

And no, fresh bread is not really a thing, outside of a few urbanish settings. A healthy proportion of bakeries don't even sell bread - only pastries, cakes, etc.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#407

Post by ska » Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 6:37 PM UTC

slothtrop wrote: post #396

ska wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> is explicit that it is about taking away choice. But it's a conversation and I am rejecting that framing. Suburbs/Exurbs as practiced in US today aren't some kind of quality of life maximizing end game. They are a natural result of a ton of policy interactions and subsidies, and the focus on it clearly has +ves and -ves. And of course it's always nice if you can get someone else to partially pay for your lifestyle,…

> Suburbs/Exurbs as practiced in US today aren't some kind of quality of life maximizing end game Notwithstanding that the middle-class overwhelmingly prefers living in the suburbs. "quiet", "safe", etc. > I think that it lacks imagination to think that we can't structure things differently and have equivalent or better quality of life overall. No one's saying that. I fully support zoning reform. If one's imagination…

> Notwithstanding that the middle-class overwhelmingly prefers living in the suburbs. "quiet", "safe", etc.

Right, but they currently believe those things for reasons that are inexorably connected to those same policy choices.

However, there is no reason to assume that if those policies change, peoples impressions and preferences won't change too. Quite the opposite, actually - that's just how incentives (and the related PR) work.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#408

Post by JAlexoid » Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 6:37 PM UTC

abdullahkhalids wrote: post #364

cornholio wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a little something that's missing from the analysis above: what people actually want. And what many people want, across many cultures once they reach a certain level of wealth, is the suburban home: low density living in isolated housing units set in a park like environment with ample greenery. Just look at almost any billionaire's mansion and you will see this pattern which becomes an aspiration for the mid…

I agree with you that people should be allowed to live in the time of communities they prefer, and if hose are suburban mansions so be it. If they also want cars, so be it. Where, perhaps, you and I disagree is that I think that people who buy these houses and cars should pay for the full cost, including all negative externalities, of their choices. Taxes should be imposed that should then try to reverse those negati…

I mean... You don't even need to impose new taxes. Just having people in suburbia actually pay the actual costs of maintenance of the existing infrastructure, would make them rethink their decisions.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#409

Post by david-gpu » Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 6:37 PM UTC

FredPret wrote: post #387

david-gpu wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no doubt that driving a car would be very convenient, but how would that choice affect my neighbors? Because car traffic in the stroads around here make our homes noisy, our air polluted and our streets unsafe for children to play and be independent. It's inconceivable to me that my kids can't bike to school because of all the car traffic around it... caused by parents dropping off their kids to school. Cars i…

False dichotomy. Also, air pollution from cars & child pedestrian deaths has never been lower.

What false dichotomy?

Cars, even EVs, are the main cause of small particulates in the air of our cities.

Cars are the #1 cause of death of children, followed by drowning.

Pedestrian deaths are actually on the rise for the past ten years or so in the US and Canada due to the increasing popularity of large SUVs and pickup trucks, which have poor visibility and blunt hoods.

It's a disaster for those of us outside the car and the saddest part is that it's a problem that has been solved in most of the developed world.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#410

Post by jjcoffman » Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 6:38 PM UTC

fatherzine wrote: post #154

jjcoffman wrote: post #119

Something I’ve thought a lot about is why don’t we have more support around golf cart and golf cart adjacent vehicles? They are fairly cheap compared to a car, can be BEV, drive around on most city streets, fractions of the weight and danger to pedestrians etc. I know it doesn’t work in a lot of areas due to weather etc, but it seems like an obvious stop-gap solution. It is also kind of “cool” to drive around in a go…

There is a delightful little town on an island off SoCal coast, Avalon, where the main mode of motorized transportation is indeed the golf cart. The shaping constraint is geography, the town is on an island by a bay surrounded by steep hills, medium/long distance travel is out of the question. Would be difficult to transition nearby LA megalopolis to such a mode of transportation without enforcing political barriers…

Well, I think this is letting perfect be the enemy of good. You could definitely improve the support for these types of vehicles and add incentives to purchases and use. As one example in CA you can’t drive on on roads that have a speed limit higher than like 40 or something. So adjusting speed limits in towns or providing exemptions for city streets’ right lanes or something would go along way with adoption.

I’m not saying you would ban cars, just incentivize using more economical modes of transport. My family of 4 would happily use a golf cart if my community had support for them on city streets.