280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars • Hacker News Board

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#171

Post by EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK » Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 5:10 PM UTC

cedws wrote: post #150

camgunz wrote: post #83

I've said it before and I'll say it again: building the future around cars of any kind is completely unsustainable. We cannot reproduce the rates of rich world car ownership in the developing world without mass catastrophe (raw materials/labor needed for construction and maintenance, raw materials/labor/space needed for roads and parking lots, literal tons of waste--batteries, tires, steel, plastic, foam--, energy ne…

People are selfish and DGAF. They will continue to buy the latest and biggest Range Rovers and Ford trucks (pedestrian death machines) to take their kids to school because they desperately need to signal how well off they are. Cars are a disgustingly polluting outlet for people to show off. IMO we should be banning big cars, possibly even legislating new cars are no bigger than a Japanese "Kei" car. Speed restriction…

So we need to invent an alternative visible and expensive status symbol. Back to gold watches?

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#172

Post by tfrutuoso » Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 5:10 PM UTC

camgunz wrote: post #83

I've said it before and I'll say it again: building the future around cars of any kind is completely unsustainable. We cannot reproduce the rates of rich world car ownership in the developing world without mass catastrophe (raw materials/labor needed for construction and maintenance, raw materials/labor/space needed for roads and parking lots, literal tons of waste--batteries, tires, steel, plastic, foam--, energy ne…

That's very elitist. Not everyone lives in large cities with whole mass transit systems or works the usual 9-5. Even in large urban areas it's tricky to get around past a certain time. I remember working unexpected shifts and later staring at closed metro stations, having to walk in the rain to get home. No thanks. Also, some people like cars. Deal with it, i'm not ditching for an e-bike or whatever. An electric motorcycle actually sounds nice though, if not for the battery weight.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#173

Post by adgjlsfhk1 » Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 5:10 PM UTC

smt88 wrote: post #89

dublinben wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How inefficient is it that your grocery store is 5 miles away? Everyone should have a grocery store within a 5 minute walk of where they live.

A very tiny number of people in the US live a 5 min walk from a grocery store. Many people live within 5 miles of one, but usually in denser areas where 5 miles could easily take 30-60 min of travel.

Right, but in denser areas it's kind of crazy that more people aren't within 1-2 miles of a grocery store.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#174

Post by paddy_m » Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 5:11 PM UTC

radium3d wrote: post #108

underbluewaters wrote: post #56

I feel lucky every single day that I can take a 10 minute e-bike ride into the office. I say lucky because I know it's not available to everyone, but it's so good for my mental health to get outside every morning and afternoon. That experience can't be replicated with a Tesla no matter how affordable they might become.

Yeah, e-bikes are great for good weather and living within 5 miles of your office. Tesla's are great for the rest and they do have windows at least for those of us who have to commute. And at least the 132MPGe of a model 3 is better than a gas powered motorcycle.

Oulu Finland would challenge your perception about good weather riding. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#175

Post by dublinben » Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 5:11 PM UTC

smt88 wrote: post #89

dublinben wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How inefficient is it that your grocery store is 5 miles away? Everyone should have a grocery store within a 5 minute walk of where they live.

A very tiny number of people in the US live a 5 min walk from a grocery store. Many people live within 5 miles of one, but usually in denser areas where 5 miles could easily take 30-60 min of travel.

>A very tiny number of people in the US live a 5 min walk from a grocery store.

That's exactly the problem. There needs to be more housing built near grocery stores, and more grocery stores built where the housing is, instead of 5 miles away.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#176

Post by dv_dt » Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 5:11 PM UTC

willio58 wrote: post #117

camgunz wrote: post #83

I've said it before and I'll say it again: building the future around cars of any kind is completely unsustainable. We cannot reproduce the rates of rich world car ownership in the developing world without mass catastrophe (raw materials/labor needed for construction and maintenance, raw materials/labor/space needed for roads and parking lots, literal tons of waste--batteries, tires, steel, plastic, foam--, energy ne…

Fully agreed. And while everything you said is super important and true, one piece that really makes me pumped about this movement to ditch cars is more around quality of life. If you have to get in a car and drive to a parking lot somewhere to get groceries, commute to work, go out with friends, get healthcare, etc. You will obviously live a less healthy life both physically but also mentally because of it. Walking…

This is such an interesting comment to me because it gets so much right on how to motivate ditching cars. If you were funding a campaign to eliminate cars to reduce carbon emissions I think you would meet with widespread resistance. If you promote an idea of a higher quality life that is possible w/o cars and explore that - in the end I think you'd end up removing many more cars than the first approach.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#177

Post by djaychela » Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 5:12 PM UTC

bluescrn wrote: post #80

Meanwhile, the UK government seem to be cracking down on them (lots of people are using bikes above the legal power limit), and seem absolutely determined never to legalise e-scooters.

As a cyclist, motorcyclist and driver, I have to say that the use of high powered ebike (surron, cake etc) on the road is pretty high where I live (Bournemouth), and I'm not keen on it. They are taken where normal bikes would go but tear up the ground like an MX bike would do, leaving damage that will take a year to grow back.

They have replaced the MX bike as the illegal transport of choice for obvious reasons. They are great, but shouldn't be on the road (unless properly registered), and the problem is that a lot of people lump them in with pedal-assist ebike (which I also ride) which is really negative PR for what is good sustainable transport.

Having influential mtb riders like Sam Pilgrim hooning around on one in some videos doesn't help..

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#178

Post by willio58 » Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 5:12 PM UTC

uneekname wrote: post #142

willio58 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fully agreed. And while everything you said is super important and true, one piece that really makes me pumped about this movement to ditch cars is more around quality of life. If you have to get in a car and drive to a parking lot somewhere to get groceries, commute to work, go out with friends, get healthcare, etc. You will obviously live a less healthy life both physically but also mentally because of it. Walking…

I totally agree about the noise and health benefits, but to me it's more a matter of respect and safety. In the U.S., we see too many pedestrians die each year. Our roads are built for cars only, with everything else as an afterthought. When I cross the street, drivers act like it's my responsibility to stay out of their way. If some people need to use cars for mobility or business reasons, that is fine with me. But…

> If some people need to use cars for mobility or business reasons, that is fine with me.

Definitely. For stuff like that, emergency services, delivery, trash collection, etc. larger vehicles on streets are totally fine and I think most would agree.

I don't even necessarily think we should ban all cars, but we should definitely stop incentivizing them by heavily subsidizing car infrastructure with city budgets funded by taxpayers. I think if we stop the incentives that were heavily lobbied for by car companies we'll find the _true_ most efficient ways to build cities which will most likely be heavily geared toward walkability and bike-ability, public transport, etc.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#179

Post by estebank » Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 5:13 PM UTC

thegrim22 wrote: post #148

camgunz wrote: post #83

I've said it before and I'll say it again: building the future around cars of any kind is completely unsustainable. We cannot reproduce the rates of rich world car ownership in the developing world without mass catastrophe (raw materials/labor needed for construction and maintenance, raw materials/labor/space needed for roads and parking lots, literal tons of waste--batteries, tires, steel, plastic, foam--, energy ne…

Remember when 20 years ago if anybody had doubts with the way things were heading we were told "there's no war on cars you conspiracy theorist, nobody's going to come for your cars you conspiracy theorist"? After 20 years they've made enough progress shaping the narrative that they no longer need to lie and hide their agenda they can just put it in the open.

The thing that continues to happen is that people living in rural towns think that cities changing their mobility priorities to decenter cars is a personal affront.

People asking to properly account for the negative externalities of car ownership can be construed as a war on cars through taxation, or as a removal of a subsidy. The only difference is framing.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#180

Post by 1234letshaveatw » Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 5:13 PM UTC

camgunz wrote: post #83

I've said it before and I'll say it again: building the future around cars of any kind is completely unsustainable. We cannot reproduce the rates of rich world car ownership in the developing world without mass catastrophe (raw materials/labor needed for construction and maintenance, raw materials/labor/space needed for roads and parking lots, literal tons of waste--batteries, tires, steel, plastic, foam--, energy ne…

Extremist nonsense. Why not restrict access to electronics, heating and cooling and lighting in the developing world? Meanwhile, here on earth, there are and will be micro EVs, trucks and busses and material advancements for batteries and recycling. Just take a look at the chinese market, there are many affordable options for the everyman. Also, if you don't think self driving cars will solve any problems you haven't driven anything with level 2/3 cruise control. Transport modernization in the developing world will be analogous to mobile phone proliferation in the developing world (in place of having a POTS), it doesn't have to mirror Norway