Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

theconversation.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

331–340 of 756 posts

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#331

Post by IG_Semmelweiss »

camgunz wrote: post #83

I've said it before and I'll say it again: building the future around cars of any kind is completely unsustainable. We cannot reproduce the rates of rich world car ownership in the developing world without mass catastrophe (raw materials/labor needed for construction and maintenance, raw materials/labor/space needed for roads and parking lots, literal tons of waste--batteries, tires, steel, plastic, foam--, energy ne…

If you live in a suburban house, with a yard, and drive a car, its likely poster is part of the problem.

Its easy to externalize blame and point fingers to something/someone else, when the reality is that people need to look inward.

The uncomfortable truth is these macro policy desires, are very much a case of "Do as I say, not as I do"

I speak this as someone that does not own a car, or have a yard, and drive a moped everywhere.

Yet, I don't want to restrict anyone in the future from owning a car (gas, if cost is an issue for the poor), or living in the suburbs.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#332

Post by riversflow »

epistasis wrote: post #272
bobbylarrybobby wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The $20k car is not elitist but the $2k ebike is? Interesting.

It's always hilarious to me when people driving $60k vehicles ask me how much the ebike cost and say "that's expensive". The ebike costs less than they pay in insurance a year, much less maintenance, gas, etc. Some people have weird ideas about cars being "for regular people" while any money spent on a bicycle is a luxury.

I’ve driven a $3k car for almost 15 years. It has needed 3 sets of tires, 2 sets of front struts, a brake job, new power steering lines and a timing belt. I did all of that work, less the tires, myself. I spend about $1000 a year on insurance and registration.

The utility I get out of the car, in absolute terms, is incomparable to my ~$1500 bicycle(that I purchased for utility and even commuted on for several years). I have slept in my car many times. My car has snacks, spare clothes and shoes, a blanket, a pillow, towels, pen and paper, bags for groceries, kick scooters, folding chairs, spare chargers and cables, amongst other things.

Regular people need to bring things they own with them and take them back home. Bikes are trash for that. When I’m on my bike, my credit card serves the function of space.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#333

Post by actuallyalys »

camgunz wrote: post #144
enqk wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has to include some thoughts on how to get vehicles to drastically lower their weights...

I really just don't think there's any benefit to trying to fix cars (I keep thinking "stop trying to make fetch/cars happen" from Mean Girls haha). My strong opinion is the way you fix the weight problem in EVs isn't to hope for better battery efficiency or w/e, it's to replace it w/ an ebike and a raincoat.

I largely agree, but it would still be a good problem to solve because it would make electric buses and the cars that can’t be replaced lighter.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#334

Post by davidw »

svnt wrote: post #288
davidw wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel this indicates you do not understand how an eBike functions. You can get on one and simply turn the throttle or set the pedal assist to the max, and poof instant breeze with no effort. It is cooler than just standing there. I lived in northern Italy for a while so I get 'hot and humid' although I'm sure it's another level in Houston.

Yeah, you don’t get it. You can’t even be outside or you will need a shower — no exertion is required.

I've ridden my normal bike in weather where it was around 95F and humid as heck in northern Italy. That is certainly a sweaty endeavor, but an eBike with the assist cranked up is like... negative exertion. You can get a breeze without working much or at all.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#335

Post by jodrellblank »

riversflow wrote: post #277
notatoad wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

nothing about living in a city or riding a bike instead of driving a car is "elitist". elitism is using a vehicle that has an average annual ownership cost of $12000 and takes up a parking space everywhere you want to go.

> average annual ownership cost of $12000 Lots of people buy luxury cars, driving up that figure, so it hardly matters when we are talking about marginal utility for someone, shall we say, disadvantaged. Which I’m guessing you’ve never been? My annual cost of ownership on my car is like $2500. I can sleep in my car too, and store clothes and food securely in it. Oh and get on demand heat & A/C access. If you don’t ha…

In "tell me you're American without telling me you're American" we have "building urban sprawl and car dependency is great because you might lose your job to at-will employment and your home to medical bills and have no social safety nets and resort to living in your car and /then/ wouldn't it be shitty if you didn't have one?". Like, maybe there's a different ... way things could be?

It can go with the thread on Signal where $338k/year was not much money, but the cost of SMS messages and cellular phonecalls was outrageously expensive.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#336

Post by cbozeman »

stouset wrote: post #203
tfrutuoso wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's very elitist. Not everyone lives in large cities with whole mass transit systems or works the usual 9-5. Even in large urban areas it's tricky to get around past a certain time. I remember working unexpected shifts and later staring at closed metro stations, having to walk in the rain to get home. No thanks. Also, some people like cars. Deal with it, i'm not ditching for an e-bike or whatever. An electric moto…

> That's very elitist. No, it is a fact. That it doesn’t align with the choices you’ve made in your life doesn’t change that. > Not everyone lives in large cities with whole mass transit systems or works the usual 9-5. Tell me you’ve never been outside the US before without telling me you’ve never been outside the US before. Joking aside (there are plenty of other countries with transit as bad as the US), plenty of o…

> A car-centric lifestyle is incompatible with a livable planet.

No it isn't. We just haven't figured it out yet. Those aren't the same thing.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#337

Post by bluejekyll »

camgunz wrote: post #83

I've said it before and I'll say it again: building the future around cars of any kind is completely unsustainable. We cannot reproduce the rates of rich world car ownership in the developing world without mass catastrophe (raw materials/labor needed for construction and maintenance, raw materials/labor/space needed for roads and parking lots, literal tons of waste--batteries, tires, steel, plastic, foam--, energy ne…

> The only way that's even remotely possible is to heavily subsidize EVs (probably honestly just providing free swaps)

I think that is in contradiction to your initial statement,

> building the future around cars of any kind is completely unsustainable. We cannot reproduce the rates of rich world car ownership in the developing world without mass catastrophe…

Subsidizing car ownership will only make these goals harder to attain. Swapping the car out for free for an EV bike, that would be great. Subsidizing only the people who need a car, ok (ambulatory issues, etc), but we should not subsidize car ownership in general.

The other part of this that I’m becoming more aware of as it’s researched more, is that the Air Quality in an area is actually more effected by dust and particulate matter from tires, brakes, and roadways than greenhouse gases (this is different from Climate impacting Greenhouse gas effects). What this means is that EV cars won’t fix the Air Quality of an area, but EV bikes definitely would.

In short, I agree with your initial statement, but it’s how we get there that needs some adjustment. Leverage more transit and bikes as solutions rather than subsidizing car ownership.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#338

Post by itsoktocry »

epistasis wrote: post #272
bobbylarrybobby wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The $20k car is not elitist but the $2k ebike is? Interesting.

It's always hilarious to me when people driving $60k vehicles ask me how much the ebike cost and say "that's expensive". The ebike costs less than they pay in insurance a year, much less maintenance, gas, etc. Some people have weird ideas about cars being "for regular people" while any money spent on a bicycle is a luxury.

>The ebike costs less than they pay in insurance a year, much less maintenance, gas, etc.

Let me just get on my eBike and cruise the streets in the 4+ months we have snow, and 6+ months it's cold.

We don't all live in California.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#339

Post by landemva »

ben0x539 wrote: post #158
landemva wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> electric bikes and mopeds are electric vehicles. At USA federal level, which applies to federal lands and federal funding like 'rec paths' on municipal lands, ebikes are bicycles. They are not vehicles and not motorcycles. https://usbr.gov/recreation/publications/ebikes.pdf A vehicle requires significantly different licensing, and typically registration + insurance policy + driver licensing. What location are you i…

A bicycle is a vehicle in plain language, I don't think they were making a point about the, uh, legal term of art. I was confused by your link, it seems to be saying ebikes aren't bicycles and are in fact a form of vehicle? > Why aren’t e-bikes considered to be traditional bikes and already allowed on Reclamation lands? > In accordance with 43 CFR 420.5(a), e-bikes are currently considered as Off-Road Vehicles

Like BlueTemplar wrote, it becomes confusing. That is why 'vehicle' caught my attention, and it may be worthwhile to not use 'ebike' and 'vehicle' as the same.

Driving an actual vehicle on a rec path will likely be a big problem for anyone who is not engaged in approved rec path maintenance. Riding an ebike on a rec path may be encouraged.

Maybe IRS tax code considers an ebike a vehicle for some deduction?

Post reply on HN