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280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

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Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#321

Post by itsoktocry »

tfrutuoso wrote: post #172
camgunz wrote: post #83

I've said it before and I'll say it again: building the future around cars of any kind is completely unsustainable. We cannot reproduce the rates of rich world car ownership in the developing world without mass catastrophe (raw materials/labor needed for construction and maintenance, raw materials/labor/space needed for roads and parking lots, literal tons of waste--batteries, tires, steel, plastic, foam--, energy ne…

That's very elitist. Not everyone lives in large cities with whole mass transit systems or works the usual 9-5. Even in large urban areas it's tricky to get around past a certain time. I remember working unexpected shifts and later staring at closed metro stations, having to walk in the rain to get home. No thanks. Also, some people like cars. Deal with it, i'm not ditching for an e-bike or whatever. An electric moto…

>Not everyone lives in large cities with whole mass transit systems or works the usual 9-5. Even in large urban areas it's tricky to get around past a certain time. I remember working unexpected shifts and later staring at closed metro stations, having to walk in the rain to get home.

These conversations are difficult to have here.

You get people from large metropolitan areas who have no clue how "the deplorables" live, making calls to "ban cars".

"I can walk around and talk to my neighbours and it's so quiet!". Yeah, I have all that where I live, and I own two cars.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#322

Post by bluGill »

Moldoteck wrote: post #278
vikramkr wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uhh, 10 kilometers is a LOT. I would not walk 6.2 miles for groceries. Or to work. Or to most things frankly

Lol neither dutch bike that long. Bikes are good for 5-7kms, >10 is already a stretch and ppl use bike+train combo or just straight up bus/tram

On an ebike that distance is reasonable. On a regular bike it is possible, but not reasonable. I have a 7 mile trip to work, I have used a regular bike for it, but it takes too long and so I wouldn't do it often. On my ebike it is a reasonable trip to work, my truck isn't that much faster (and is much harder to drive)

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#323

Post by deegles »

willio58 wrote: post #117
camgunz wrote: post #83

I've said it before and I'll say it again: building the future around cars of any kind is completely unsustainable. We cannot reproduce the rates of rich world car ownership in the developing world without mass catastrophe (raw materials/labor needed for construction and maintenance, raw materials/labor/space needed for roads and parking lots, literal tons of waste--batteries, tires, steel, plastic, foam--, energy ne…

Fully agreed. And while everything you said is super important and true, one piece that really makes me pumped about this movement to ditch cars is more around quality of life. If you have to get in a car and drive to a parking lot somewhere to get groceries, commute to work, go out with friends, get healthcare, etc. You will obviously live a less healthy life both physically but also mentally because of it. Walking…

I just drove by a new giant highway overpass being built in Texas and I was wondering to myself "how many houses could have been built with all the money and resources sunk into this?"

All of Texas (30m) could live in a high density city the size of Tokyo. Which is huge, but not as huge as the rest of Texas.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#324

Post by pcl »

bluGill wrote: post #279
pcl wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IANA automotive engineer, but I would assume that injuries from car-vs-pedestrian collisions are mostly due to impact velocity, and not due to momentum. I wouldn’t be surprised if the higher-mass electric vehicles are more dangerous to other cars when involved in car-vs-car collisions, though.

Smaller cars are more likely to throw you up and over - still dangerous, but not as dangerous as a direct inelastic hit. Smaller cars have better visibility of pedestrians and so are more likely to see and thus avoid pedestrians. If you take a direct hit with even a tiny car at faster than 30mph you are dead. However smaller cars make it somewhat less likely you take that direct hit.

Yeah — but when I hear people talking about how EVs are heavier, I assume that people are making a like-for-like model comparison.

In a similar body size, EVs tend to weigh more, due to all the extra battery.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#325

Post by Muromec »

NovemberWhiskey wrote: post #295
Glide wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a positive vision of where society can go rather than having to sacrifice and buckle down. Do people not remember riding bikes as kids? Riding a bike is _still_ fun. It never stopped being fun. Now you can do that and get to work.

Riding a bike is not fun if you're doing it to commute - having to do it in all weathers, in traffic that feels unsafe, even if you don't feel like it and got poor sleep etc. It's really fundamentally not the same.

Then don't commute in bad weather and in unsafe conditions. Working from home and improving road infrastructure is totally an option.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#326

Post by cbozeman »

epistasis wrote: post #272
bobbylarrybobby wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The $20k car is not elitist but the $2k ebike is? Interesting.

It's always hilarious to me when people driving $60k vehicles ask me how much the ebike cost and say "that's expensive". The ebike costs less than they pay in insurance a year, much less maintenance, gas, etc. Some people have weird ideas about cars being "for regular people" while any money spent on a bicycle is a luxury.

I can't carry four other people on my ebike, along with stuffing a minimum of one duffle bag per person, and usually being able to squeeze two in, along with a cooler for drinks, snacks, and sandwiches.

My Telluride can do that though.

Even if I could somehow fit all that shit onto an ebike, I wonder how long it and I would be able to make it before we give trying to go the 125 miles from Fort Worth to Possum Kingdom Lake...

This site infuriates me sometimes at the complete and utter lack of understanding of most of the United States.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#327

Post by NovemberWhiskey »

jodrellblank wrote: post #316
cvoss wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think GP claimed living in a city or riding a bike was elitist. I think the claim was that imposing solutions that only work in cities as if they work for everybody is elitist. And, speaking for myself now, it's important to remember that, in many contexts, living in the city is a luxury that many cannot afford without greatly diminishing their current standard of living. Outside the city, housing is cheap. Y…

[edit: retracted]

You should check the definition of urban that's being used there - it's not what you'd call "cities".

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#328

Post by lost_tourist »

camgunz wrote: post #83

I've said it before and I'll say it again: building the future around cars of any kind is completely unsustainable. We cannot reproduce the rates of rich world car ownership in the developing world without mass catastrophe (raw materials/labor needed for construction and maintenance, raw materials/labor/space needed for roads and parking lots, literal tons of waste--batteries, tires, steel, plastic, foam--, energy ne…

1st point will never happen in democracies

2nd point is also debatable in western democracies.

What you proscribe is only possible (currently) in dictatorships. It may be possible in 20 years after many more weather and climate disasters

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#329

Post by zimpenfish »

simmanian wrote: post #48

I bought an ebike to complement my aging 2007 Toyota instead of replacing it outright with another car. I use the bike for most light use cases within the 10 mile radius and still lean into using my car when needed. Here are my takes on ebikes. Pros: - Ebikes help people punch above their weight class, allowing them to bike farther and faster - Going uphill is much easier - Ebikes encourage people to be more adventur…

> They tend to be rather heavy

That's my problem - I need an e-bike because my knee is shattered but there's nowhere to store one safely outside and we live on the 3rd floor. Even my previous 10kg normal bike (with working knees!) was a faff getting up the stairs. A 20-25kg e-bike is an absolute no-no.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#330

Post by mattlondon »

I would like to point out that the people in those pictures are wearing short sleeves and it is sunny (and presumably warm).

As someone who had to scrape ice off of my windscreen this morning while the temperature inside the passenger compartment was creeping up from 1 degree above freezing, the inevitable suggestion that bikes are a better solution than cars is going to fall on my deaf ears. You're not going to get me to drive my very-young kids around in near-zero freezing rainy conditions in an open cargo bike with no heating. Sorry.

Don't get me wrong ebikes are great, but suggesting that we should all have bikes doesn't work if you don't live in California.or somewhere else where it is also mild and never very cold or very hot.

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