280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars • Hacker News Board

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#151

Post by hurryer » Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 5:05 PM UTC

PopAlongKid wrote: post #123

hurryer wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you care if they don't wear helmets?

Because if they suffer a serious injury they are going to drain hospital resources from people who did not cause their own disease/injury, possibly become a permanent disabled person on the public dole, and in general raise the cost of health care.

You can make this point about a lot of activities, sports, drinking, smoking, drugs, eating too much.

And a helmet doesn't prevent broken bones, spines, so they will still drain hospital resources.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#152

Post by ttrmw » Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 5:05 PM UTC

rglullis wrote: post #35

Mountain_Skies wrote: post #8

Eliminating the daily commute for those who have jobs where in person presence isn't essential beats all other forms of transportation. But activists, cities, and greenwash companies have all shown their true face, each for their own reasons of self-interest.

I take you don't have kids to take to school and you get all your groceries delivered to your door by someone on an e-bike?

taking kids to school is actually the reason we just caved and bought a cargo bike, which we're gonna add e-assist to.

For a great many people in urban centres, the school run is the most egregiously frustrating car journey and the one most attractive to eliminate

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#153

Post by local_crmdgeon » Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 5:05 PM UTC

hurryer wrote: post #134

local_crmdgeon wrote: post #86

A few people have asked for recommendations, and I just spent months researching ebikes to buy. Cheap and cheerful: Priority Current. Mid hub, internally-geared rear hub, upright position, cheap. Can get from Costco on fat discount for $2,600. Not a cargo bike, but amazing to go to the shops. Longer-term: Specialized Globe Haul. I feel the same way about it as I do my pickup truck - it can go anywhere, do anything, a…

Looking at both of them, they look very heavy (not considering the motor and battery). And the gearing seems limited. Are they actually usable in non-electric mode?

Yes, both of them are. The Current in particular rides very normally when the battery is dead. The Haul rides fine, but like a fat tire bike that weights 90#.

If you want light + power + midhubed, you're going to spend a LOT of money. That's Riese and Mueller territory

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#154

Post by fatherzine » Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 5:05 PM UTC

jjcoffman wrote: post #119

Something I’ve thought a lot about is why don’t we have more support around golf cart and golf cart adjacent vehicles? They are fairly cheap compared to a car, can be BEV, drive around on most city streets, fractions of the weight and danger to pedestrians etc. I know it doesn’t work in a lot of areas due to weather etc, but it seems like an obvious stop-gap solution. It is also kind of “cool” to drive around in a go…

There is a delightful little town on an island off SoCal coast, Avalon, where the main mode of motorized transportation is indeed the golf cart. The shaping constraint is geography, the town is on an island by a bay surrounded by steep hills, medium/long distance travel is out of the question. Would be difficult to transition nearby LA megalopolis to such a mode of transportation without enforcing political barriers to travel, which in practice would require a ruthless tyranny.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avalon,_California#Transportat...

"The main method of transportation within the city is by small gasoline or electric powered motorcars referred to locally as "autoettes". These include numerous golf carts and similarly sized vehicles. Vehicles under 55 inches (140 cm) wide, 120 inches (300 cm) long, and less than 1,800 pounds (820 kg) may qualify as an autoette. Any resident may acquire an autoette permit with the restriction of one permit per household. It is very difficult for a private citizen to get a permit to have a full-size vehicle in Avalon."

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#155

Post by Glide » Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 5:05 PM UTC

josefresco wrote: post #65

What's soured me on electric scooters and bikes is the complete lack of repair infrastructure. My electric scooter was not cheap and when it broke (out of warranty) my local bike shop wouldn't touch it.

Completely agree and it's worse with electric unicycles.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#156

Post by abeppu » Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 5:06 PM UTC

erostrate wrote: post #31

Shatnerz wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are you defining efficiency here? Is walking really more efficient than cycling? I would put walking as the least efficient manual powered methods mentioned. Aside: I used to unicycle to work, and I have to say that it was both fantastic and much faster than walking while on a 27.5" wheel.

What does a salmon have in common with a man on a bicycle? They are both Pareto-efficient. Here's a chart of cost of transport (calories/gram/km) vs weight (kg) comparing a salmon vs a bicycle vs a jet fighter etc: https://www.bike.nyc/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/efficiency-g...

When is that measuring the salmon? Surely, calories per gram per kilometer is very high if you're swimming upstream and low when you're going downstream, right? Is this when they're in the ocean phase?

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#157

Post by p_j_w » Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 5:06 PM UTC

PopAlongKid wrote: post #123

hurryer wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you care if they don't wear helmets?

Because if they suffer a serious injury they are going to drain hospital resources from people who did not cause their own disease/injury, possibly become a permanent disabled person on the public dole, and in general raise the cost of health care.

This is far less likely in a world where people don’t use their cars to drive 2 minutes to the grocery store.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#158

Post by ben0x539 » Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 5:06 PM UTC

landemva wrote: post #98

tofflos wrote: post #4

"So what’s the best solution? You might think switching to an electric vehicle is the natural step. In fact, for short trips, an electric bike or moped might be better for you – and for the planet." Also in fact, electric bikes and mopeds are electric vehicles.

> electric bikes and mopeds are electric vehicles. At USA federal level, which applies to federal lands and federal funding like 'rec paths' on municipal lands, ebikes are bicycles. They are not vehicles and not motorcycles. https://usbr.gov/recreation/publications/ebikes.pdf A vehicle requires significantly different licensing, and typically registration + insurance policy + driver licensing. What location are you i…

A bicycle is a vehicle in plain language, I don't think they were making a point about the, uh, legal term of art.

I was confused by your link, it seems to be saying ebikes aren't bicycles and are in fact a form of vehicle?

> Why aren’t e-bikes considered to be traditional bikes and already allowed on Reclamation lands?

> In accordance with 43 CFR 420.5(a), e-bikes are currently considered as Off-Road Vehicles

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#159

Post by ackfoobar » Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 5:06 PM UTC

thelastgallon wrote: post #2

We don't need a 4000 lb vehicle to move a ~200 lb person. In order of efficiency: (1) Walk (2) Unicycle, roller skate, scooter (no battery, very little material) (2) Bike (3) Electric bike (and all forms of newfangled electric: escooters, segways) (4) Electric motorbike or scooter (5) Mass transit (can be public/private) transportation: Electric trains (6) Mass transit (can be public/private) transportation: Electric…

Many aspects to the word "efficiency".

Space efficiency - how wide it takes to reach a certain throughput - train wins

Time efficiency - how much time it takes to get from point A to point B - barring traffic, car wins

Energy efficiency - how much energy it takes - bike wins

Your argument is just as strong without the subjective ranking of efficiency.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#160

Post by adamredwoods » Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 5:06 PM UTC

rglullis wrote: post #28

k_dumez wrote: post #17

"In the United States, a staggering 60% of all car trips cover less than 10km." Being lucky enough to live in a walkable city (NYC) this is insane to me. The world is so car-brained.

[flagged]

Sure, history made it so. From the automobile, to oil, to interstates, North America is it.

https://www.army.mil/article/198095/dwight_d_eisenhower_and_...

>> President Eisenhower is widely regarded as the catalyst for the IHS. His motivations for a highway network stemmed from three events: his assignment as a military observer to the First Transcontinental Motor Convoy, his experience in World War II where he observed the efficiencies of the German autobahn, and the Soviet Union's 1953 detonation of the hydrogen bomb, which instigated a fear that insufficient roads would keep Americans from being able to escape a nuclear disaster.