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The Guardian Deletes Osama Bin Laden's 'Letter to America'

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Re: The Guardian Deletes Osama Bin Laden's 'Letter to America'

#131
post #106
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same arguments can be made about terrorism. I'd argue that war was not the only choice in many instances it was used, just like terrorism wasn't the only choice. That may not be a popular opinion for either side. War is reactionary and somehow hasn't stopped terrorism despite its blunt usage. And terrorism hasn't stopped bombs from falling yet either.

War may be imposed upon you by one side, such as the invasion of a country. At which point, war stopped being a choice. Terrorism as far as we can see is basically incredibly ineffective for inspiring any sort of changes, and serves to enrage your enemy, much like indiscriminate mass bombing often strengthen the resolve of those who are on the receiving end of it.

> Terrorism as far as we can see is basically incredibly ineffective for inspiring any sort of changes

I think that deserves a qualification: terrorism can be very effective against an occupying force and when it has the backing of the local population. But terrorism in its 20th century sense of "propaganda of the deed" has indeed shown very ineffective time and again.

I recall an anarchist revolutionary in the early 20th century assassinating a factory owner or somesuch thinking that his act of violence would spur the combative union workers into revolutionary action only to find out that they would turn on him instead. On the other hand there are plenty of documented successes at guerilla warfare - of course always contingent on wide support from the local civilians they were trying to liberate. Likewise, the bombing campaigns in WW2 did little to break the spirit of the civilian population and at worst only radicalized them.

Re: The Guardian Deletes Osama Bin Laden's 'Letter to America'

#132
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intent matters. If you are trying to destroy terrorists, it can be a messy job that results in innocent bystanders also dying, but that alone doesn’t make you a terrorist. When you specifically target innocent civilians just to make some kind of point, you are a terrorist.

Israel explicitly pursues collective punishment as a strategy. Always has and it's obviously what's happening in Gaza now.

There’s no alternative, the terrorists hide amongst the civilians.

Re: The Guardian Deletes Osama Bin Laden's 'Letter to America'

#133
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel explicitly pursues collective punishment as a strategy. Always has and it's obviously what's happening in Gaza now.

There’s no alternative, the terrorists hide amongst the civilians.

Are you saying that the 30% children are also terrorists?

Re: The Guardian Deletes Osama Bin Laden's 'Letter to America'

#134
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If I recall correctly, the terrorists attacked the US because they "don't like freedom" The letter very clearly states that they don't like freedom! It very specifically calls out permissiveness of sex, gays, banking (as every western nation sees it, contra Islamic banking), gambling, alcohol, and separation of church and state as evils: > (a) We call you to be a people of manners, principles, honour, and purity; t…

It’s funny how it’s okay to call those things evil if you’re a conservative Christian group but we cling onto the same words as one of the justifications to kill and attack another group

Not really. You're comparing free speech to what Al Qaeda is actually doing. Keeping women uneducated, lynching homosexuals, etc.

I wouldn't say that the speech is "Ok" as much as it is simply tolerated in American democracy. Free speech is core American value, so you hear from the fringes. If they actually follow through and act (occasionally happens and makes national news), it is no longer be tolerated.

Re: The Guardian Deletes Osama Bin Laden's 'Letter to America'

#135
post #133
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s no alternative, the terrorists hide amongst the civilians.

Are you saying that the 30% children are also terrorists?

No, I’m saying terrorists are the intended targets and children just happen to be in the way.

Re: The Guardian Deletes Osama Bin Laden's 'Letter to America'

#136
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you include only that section but omit the one above it that contains a theory that the motivations were indeed religious and intended as acts against those who don’t share their religious and cultural beliefs (aka the West and other locations with freedom of religion) > Daniel Benjamin and Steven Simon, in their book, The Age of Sacred Terror, argue that the 9/11 terrorist attacks are purely religious. The…

I wonder if you misunderstood me or what I quoted. I was trying to argue against the person I replied to by showing evidence that those "grievances" aren't necessarily the true motive. If I understand your other post correctly, you agree with this.

The grievances (air quotes are inappropriate here) listed may not necessarily be the true motive, but they sure seem to be the true motive based on the evidence we see.

Re: The Guardian Deletes Osama Bin Laden's 'Letter to America'

#137
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dropping bombs on innocent civilians in a third world country doesn't make you a hero either, but that doesn't stop our media from calling all members of the military involved in the wars in the middle East heroes. Also read more carefully they never said the "terrorists" were heroes they explained the point of view of the "terrorists"

Dropping a bomb technically doesn't make you a hero, and that's why Clinton, Bush, Obama, and Trump are not considered heros. Signing up at 18 years old to go fight in a foreign country after just a couple hundred hours of training, does make you a hero compared to those that sit at home their whole lives and do nothing to help maintain society. If heros that go into the military didn't exist, I'd be speaking German…

Claiming that everyone who didn't sign up to kill people thousands of miles away from their society, were just "sitting at home their whole lives doing nothing to help maintain society", seems a bit dismissive.

To avoid a flame war, I won't explicitly say they do more for society than iraq war volunteers, but teachers and doctors do plenty for society, for example.

Re: The Guardian Deletes Osama Bin Laden's 'Letter to America'

#138
post #108
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Intentionally trying to blow up non-combatants is bad - and there is no way to make it good. Its one thing if non-combatants are collateral damage (war is dirty), its another thing entirely if ones intention is to intentionally kill civilians.

But what if intentionally blowing up a hundred civilians saves a thousand more? That's one argument used to justify the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki for example, and the carpet-bombing of Germany. Many people have also disagreed with those arguments, but especially in the case of Germany it kind of was of a "kill some civilians to save many more" type of trolley problem – the greater Holocaust effort was stopped…

I can defend Hiroshima and Nagasaki as military targets. I actually have a greater trouble defending the firebombing of Tokyo (though, its pretty clear to me that the capitol of a combatant country is probably a valid target for bombing in a declared war) because of the sheer number of casualties.

One of my gripes about WWII in the Pacific Theatre, is some folks get very bothered by use of nuclear weapons, while ignoring or downplaying the use of incendiaries, which often killed far more people.

Re: The Guardian Deletes Osama Bin Laden's 'Letter to America'

#139
post #135
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying that the 30% children are also terrorists?

No, I’m saying terrorists are the intended targets and children just happen to be in the way.

Wow.

What if it were your children, xwdv? What if your children were the ones being shot and blown up to get those "terrorists"? Would you still think that it's okay since your children "just happened to be in the way"?

No wonder those people hold you accountable.

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